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  1. #1
    Senior Member Thomas_Percy's Avatar
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    Ley Line Question

    From BRCS 3,5:
    "A mage can only forge ley lines from a province in which he holds a source (the initial province), but the mage does not have to have a source in the terminal province to which the ley line connects. Ley lines can be forged over any overland distance. A ley line cannot extend over more than 150 miles of water."

    It's a different solution than original BRCS.

    1. Why a mage does not have to have a source in the terminal province to which the ley line connects?
    Doubt: Can Rhoubhe connect his Rhoubhe province with City of Anuire and raze it by Raze realm spell (I assume he choose a time, when Dosiere & Co. have no RP)?

    2. Why Ley lines can be forged over any overland distance?
    Can I connect a Taeghas and Vosgaard with single Ley Line?
    Doubt: There will be a mess of crossing ley lines on the map.

    3. Why a ley line cannot extend over more than 150 miles of water?
    Why I can connect unlimited (as I understood) overland distances and i can't connect unlimited water distances?
    Doubt: Why there are no sea Sources? Sea is wildest and untouched by civilization area than many other terrains?

    Thanks for help.

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    Ley Line Question

    In a message dated 3/2/06 4:56:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
    brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:

    << 3. Why a ley line cannot extend over more than 150 miles of water?
    Why I can connect unlimited (as I understood) overland distances and i can`t
    connect unlimited water distances?
    Doubt: Why there are no sea Sources? Sea is wildest and untouched by
    civilization area than many other terrains? >>

    I can`t answer the middle one, but I`d suspect the other questions is
    answered best by the sea being so unexplored and alien to Cerilia`s air-breathing
    mages that a ley line would have to have a major adjustment to go beyond that
    distance. 150 miles might be the extent of the continental shelf, so a ley
    line can be run as long as the sea bottom (that is, "land") is within a few
    hundred feet of the caster, but once the bottom drops away to miles deep, he
    cannot maintain contact with the mebhaigl.
    I`ve often considered a campaign built around a sea mage able to use
    ocean-based sources, but never put any real thought into it. The Kraken, or a
    merfolk/sahuagin wizard would have lots of isolation from land-based interference.
    Here`s a thought-- are the merfolk, or sahuagin, blooded at all? I`d bet
    none of them were at Deismaar.

    Lee.

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    There was a sea battle to go along side the land battle at daesmar and they certainly could have been there they may not have gained the most powerful bloodlines though.
    MORNINGSTAR

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    The answers as I would state (not official).


    1. You can forge a ley line to where you don't have a source, but it vanishes in 3 action rounds. You can force magic to flow where there is no end connection, but it weakens and fades in time. And yes, Rhuobhe could do that, if he has enough RP. BoM has an example where someone makes a ley line into Ghoere, subverts a Roesone invasion army to attack Spiderfell instead.

    2. Ley lines are extension of stable magic. Magic flows nice and smooth across/through land. The distance of the ley line is not important when making it, only when casting a spell through it. Each province distance adds RP cost to the spell, so a ley line from Taeghas to Vosgaard would cost around +70 RP to cast.

    3. In 2E BR, water was a chaotic mass of magic. The stability needed for a ley line couldn't be maintained because of this. It doesn't make a lot of sense unless you consider that the sea, though full of magic (coastal provinces have more source potential), is a mass of chaos. It's hard to coalesce chaos into a ley line. Eventually you just can't do it, and that magic number is 150 miles.
    No sea sources for just this reason - the chaos can't be harnessed. Yes, there is huge magical potential there, but it's so random that you can't put it to use. It's like holding onto water in 1 hand - you can only keep a very little bit, not the whole bucket full when poured in.

  5. #5
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    Ley Line Question

    At 02:56 PM 3/2/2006, Thomas_Percy wrote:

    >1. Why a mage does not have to have a source in the terminal
    >province to which the ley line connects?
    >
    >Doubt: Can Rhoubhe connect his Rhoubhe province with City of Anuire
    >and raze it by Raze realm spell (I assume he choose a time, when
    >Dosiere & Co. have no RP)?
    >
    >2. Why Ley lines can be forged over any overland distance?
    >
    >Can I connect a Taeghas and Vosgaard with single Ley Line?
    >
    >Doubt: There will be a mess of crossing ley lines on the map.

    The way I like to think about sources and ley lines is by imagining
    not just the domain level effect but the adventure level as
    well. That is domain level holdings have adventure level
    manifestations that the regent has extensive control over. For
    instance, a temple(1) represents the control over a few small shrines
    in a provine. A temple(5) represents control over, say, a cathedral,
    an abbey, several local temples, etc. It is the combined influence
    of this control that allows the regent to participate at the domain level.

    Sources are a little different in that the adventure level things
    being controlled are not buildings and staff per se. They are
    mystical places that are the focus of a province`s magical
    energies. Such manifestations might take any form; they might be
    represented by the meadow where unicorns graze, a cave once occupied
    by a dragon that still resonates with power, a standing stone
    constructed by elves so long ago that even they have forgotten when
    it was placed there. Etc.

    Ley lines are also physically manifested, but by things that travel
    from one province to another. A wizard might channel his power
    through a river that touches both provinces, for instance. A ley
    line might be manifested by a wind that passed through the
    manifestation of the sources in both provinces that the regent
    controls. That is, imagine a strange, mystical breeze that passes by
    the ancient oak that is controlled by a wizard as the manifestation
    of his source in one province. That breeze passes all the way to
    another province where it touches the shimmering cliff face of a
    mountain that is the manifestation of that wizard`s source holding
    there. Through that breeze the power of the source holding in the
    first province is access in the second.

    Now, one could imagine a breeze or other physical manifestation
    passing over the seas, but 150 miles is a lot of distance for
    something like the wind to be maintained undiluted. As has been
    noted the chaotic nature of the sea tends to be more difficult to
    control. 150 miles is still a pretty good ways, but the very nature
    of the sea makes it difficult for the physical manifestation of a ley
    line to remain intact over a greater distance of ocean.

    Of course, if one could create a ley line _through_ the ocean rather
    than over it that would be another story.... More on that below.

    >3. Why a ley line cannot extend over more than 150 miles of water?
    >
    >Why I can connect unlimited (as I understood) overland distances and
    >i can`t connect unlimited water distances?
    >
    >Doubt: Why there are no sea Sources? Sea is wildest and untouched by
    >civilization area than many other terrains?

    I think there probably are sources in the sea. At least, I can
    imagine them pretty easily as I`m sure you have. However, I come
    back to the nature of sources and their manifestations for an
    explanation as to why they aren`t in the original rules or the
    update, and as a rationale for the limitations on ley lines. For
    example, a wizard gains control over a source by performing some sort
    of mystical process at an actual locale, mastering the magical
    potential of a crystal cave, ancient oak, etc. Such things exist
    beneath the sea as well as on the land, but there are two fundamental
    problems with mastering them.

    1. The manifestation of sources in sea provinces are underwater. On
    those occasions when they emerge they are, pretty nearly by
    definition, on some sort of island which then is effectively handled
    as a province. Most wizards aren`t able to hold their breath for the
    weeks of meditation, psychic concentration and outright adventuring
    required to establish control over a source beneath the waves.

    2. Certainly there are magical ways of staying underwater. Notably
    magic items and there was a blood ability in the original rules that
    gave the character the ability to breath water. One could also
    imagine a polymorphed or otherwise shifted character having the
    ability to stay underwater for an extended period of time. Long
    enough to master the manifestations of a source holding in a sea
    province. However, not a lot of Cerilians have access to this kind
    of magic. The elves, for instance, who are magical leaders of the
    continent appear to have no interest in that kind of
    adventure. Cerilian humans do engage in sea travel, but they are
    largely confined to boats. There are only rumors of underwater races
    (the sahuagin) but very little actual underwater adventure in the
    original materials. As a low magic setting, though, such magics are
    relatively scarce in BR.

    The point of this is that the skills and knowledge to master
    underwater sources has not yet been developed by Cerilian
    wizards. Magic, like any course of study, has a research and
    development process. Because of the lack of solutions to the problem
    of extended periods of time underwater nobody has yet performed that process.

    I would argue that sources in sea provinces are very possible. There
    has been some discussion of the issue in the past in which the
    potential source levels of various sea provinces has been discussed,
    and I think that stuff makes a lot of sense. Because it is so
    difficult for a wizard to stay in place long enough to truly "master"
    those manifestations, though, they remain largely untapped.

    Similarly, the underwater equivalent of a ley line can be
    imagined. It might be some underwater terrain feature or a feature
    of the water; a trench or current. However, the issue again is
    mastering such a manifestation without succumbing to the briny deep,
    which is tough for the mostly land-based Cerilian wizards.

    Gary

  6. #6
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    Ley Line Question

    One more note about the unlimited nature of ley lines. They may not
    be _really_ unlimited. That is, they are _effectively_ unlimited for
    a campaign based on Cerilia, but that`s because Cerilia is a pretty
    small continent. If ley lines can be created overland that have
    around 10 times the distance of those that pass over the sea then
    they are pretty nearly unlimited in range given the size of
    Cerilia. Personally, I think that`s a little more reasonable an
    interpretation of the concept.

    Gary

  7. #7
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas_Percy
    From BRCS 3,5:
    "A mage can only forge ley lines from a province in which he holds a source (the initial province), but the mage does not have to have a source in the terminal province to which the ley line connects. Ley lines can be forged over any overland distance. A ley line cannot extend over more than 150 miles of water."

    It's a different solution than original BRCS.

    1. Why a mage does not have to have a source in the terminal province to which the ley line connects?
    Doubt: Can Rhoubhe connect his Rhoubhe province with City of Anuire and raze it by Raze realm spell (I assume he choose a time, when Dosiere & Co. have no RP)?
    Actually in 2nd ed it didn't specifically state that the wizard had to connect 2 sources with his ley line.

    While the example in the BRRB talked about connecting a Level (7) and Level (1) source it didn't state that a ley line had to connect sources and in the BoM, which goes into much more detail about sources it goes on. . .


    BoM pg 25+ talks about ley lines.


    It talks about the source’s province and the destination province. It does not say the ley lines connect sources.





    BoM pg 27

    “Once a ley line has been forge the wizard can cast spells in the terminal province as if he had a source there.”


    2. Why Ley lines can be forged over any overland distance?
    Can I connect a Taeghas and Vosgaard with single Ley Line?
    Doubt: There will be a mess of crossing ley lines on the map.

    Pretty much. If you pay the price and make the check you can accomplish the task.

    Remember that ley lines are "magical" and not the same as roads.

    3. Why a ley line cannot extend over more than 150 miles of water?
    Why I can connect unlimited (as I understood) overland distances and i can't connect unlimited water distances?
    Doubt: Why there are no sea Sources? Sea is wildest and untouched by civilization area than many other terrains?


    As others have pointed out this is consistent with the 2nd ed material.

    IMO TSR didn't have sufficient time to explore the seas very much so most of that is left poorly developed.

    There is the problem with walking the distance to connect the endpoints of a ley line though and the real drastic limitations with traveling over the seas - some of which are pretty rough and others are inhabited by powerful monsters and awnshegh.

    Gary spoke pretty well about the inherent problems with sea sources and tapping the manifestations therein.
    Duane Eggert

  8. #8
    Senior Member Thomas_Percy's Avatar
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    Thanks again for explanations.

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