Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 11
  1. #1
    Birthright Developer Raesene Andu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    South Australia
    Posts
    1,357
    Downloads
    1
    Uploads
    0

    Anuirean Noble Titles

    As part of the Atlas, I plan to include a small section on Anuirean nobility, explaining what each title covers. Currently the ranks of nobility are listed like this.

    - Emperor
    - Prince
    - Archduke
    - Duke
    - Baron
    - Count

    Count's control 1 province, Baron's control 3-4 provinces. Duke's control one of the original 12 duchies. Archduke is the one that is difficult to nail down.

    Anyone who wants to add their comments or help out with this section is welcome to do so. I'm also interesting in including the correct form of address for each rank, just as a nice little bonus.
    Let me claim your Birthright!!

  2. #2
    Site Moderator Sorontar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    3,942
    Downloads
    23
    Uploads
    1

    Order of Precedence

    > Count's control 1 province, Baron's control 3-4 provinces. Duke's control one of the original > 12 duchies. Archduke is the one that is difficult to nail down.

    Um, according to most European orders of precedence, I believe the order is Emperor, King, Royal Prince, Duke, Earl/Count/Countess, Viscount, Baron, so I would swap the numbers for Count and Baron.

    Archduke has always been a confusing one for me. In European history, I think it could be treated as a leader who doesn't want to be called Prince or King. For BR, it should probably be treated like a Prince or Duke with a big ego problem or a historical reason to have a different title.

    Sorontar
    Sorontar
    Information Communication ILLUMINATION!!

  3. #3
    Birthright Developer Raesene Andu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    South Australia
    Posts
    1,357
    Downloads
    1
    Uploads
    0
    BR is defintely around the other way though. Count of Ilien, Baroness of Roesone are good examples. This order is also mentioned in the Ruins of Empire book. Changing it might require changing the titles of some of Anuire's regents, something I'd prefer not to do...

    Interestingly though, when you get to Brechtur, the two most powerful regents are Counts (Count of Danigau, Count of Muden). Of course, the titles there are mixed up because of the Anuirean occupation so that the ruler of Grevesmuhl is known as a Duke, and then there are kings, barons, baronets, and count who aren't as powerful as proper counts, and Vos rulers and elves, and so on.

    Anuire is one place with a long-standing history of titled nobles and it would be useful to add something to the Atlas about this. There is no reason why Anuirean titles need to match their RL equivalents though.
    Let me claim your Birthright!!

  4. #4
    Birthright Developer
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    388
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Anuirean Noble Titles

    > Raesene Andu wrote:
    > As part of the Atlas, I plan to include a small section on Anuirean
    > nobility, explaining what each title covers. Currently the ranks of
    > nobility are listed like this.
    >
    > - Emperor
    > - Prince
    > - Archduke
    > - Duke
    > - Baron
    > - Count
    >
    > Count`s control 1 province, Baron`s control 3-4 provinces. Duke`s control
    > one of the original 12 duchies. Archduke is the one that is difficult to
    > nail down.
    >
    > Anyone who wants to add their comments or help out with this section is
    > welcome to do so. I`m also interesting in including the correct form of
    > address for each rank, just as a nice little bonus.

    Archduke and Prince are self-granted titles in Anuire, post-empire. The
    Avanese and Boeruine nobles at some point in their history decided they
    merited better titles than mere Duke.

    The highest title in the empire was Duke (save emperor, of course).

    If we were using British forms of address, Dukes are addressed as "Your
    Grace" or "Duke/Duchess Diemed"; everybody else gets "My Lord/Lady" or
    "Count/Countess/Baron/Baronness Ilien"; I believe it`s correct to address
    them by their holding, not their family name or whatnot.

    These are of course the historical origin of the titles. Since the last
    emperor, there has been nobody to confirm new titles, so Gavin Tael, a
    Baron (IIRC), rules a large territory comprising two of the old duchies,
    and is recognized by everybody as legitimate enough that they don`t want
    to pick a fight with him, but he remains a Baron and not a Duke. The
    titles mean much less now, since they haven`t been updated officially in
    551 years, hence the note in the boxed set that nobles are addressed by
    their name first (Darien Avan, Prince of Avanil), since the title is of
    secondary import to who they are and what they control.
    --
    Daniel McSorley

  5. #5
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Virginia Beach, Virginia
    Posts
    3,946
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    I agree with Dan - archduke and prince are "made up" titles.

    But Chap 8 has probably the closest thing you are going to find correlating titles:

    Regents and bloodline strength

    In the BIRTHRIGHT setting, a character of any level can become a regent of a domain of any size. A low-level character may have the responsibility of the domain thrust upon him before he is ready. A high-level character may have small domains forged from the barren wilderness at his own hands or wrested from a long-seated ruler. The power of a regent's bloodline, however, is usually very strongly related to the prestige of his family line and thus, with his noble title. Each culture has its own system of titles and ranks among nobles, but this can provide a rough guideline for relative power of a character’s bloodlines.



    (get the table from Ch 8 - doesn't post well).



    In Anuire, most nobles of the rank of Duke or above are Major or Great scions with the Great Heritage template. The Great Heritage template is also possessed by all of the direct descendants of the rulers of the original 12 duchies; Avanil, Taeghas, Boeruine, Alamie, Mhoried, Cariele, Elinie, Osoerde, Aerenwe, Dhalaene (part of modern day Ghoere), Ghieste (part of modern day Ghoere), and Diemed. Barons and Counts are usually Major or Minor Scions. Counts usually hold a single province, while a Baron always holds at least two. Nobles of the rank of Lord or below are usually unblooded. Some powerful temple and guild regents have no noble rank at all; but most domain rulers have some circuitous claim to a family of major or minor nobility from whence they derive their bloodline.

    To a large extent, the Brecht have adopted Anuirean titles. One major exception is that, in Brechtür, the title Count is roughly equivalent to that of an Anuirean Archduke. This may date back from the days of the Anuirean occupation when foreign lords held the highest positions of authority and local lords (who held the true power in the minds of the people) were limited to the rank of Count. Brecht regents assume any combination of titles in order to try to seem more important, these include; Duke, King, Baron, Baronet, etc. These often have little or no relationship to the strength of the regent’s bloodline. Brecht Counts, on the other hand, are often Major or Great scions, and may also have Great Heritage.

    Khinasi culture is highly independent. Each city-state is ruled by a King or Queen who often has a unique title. Khinasi Kings are usually Great or Major scions and those who are decedents of El-Arrases are of Great Heritage. Emirs, Sultans, and Lords are usually Major or Minor scions. Due to the high esteem in which true mages are held in the lands of Khinasi, many powerful wizards and sorcerers of very minor bloodlines have achieved positions of significant rank. Most blooded Khinasi are nobles, but only a very few have bloodlines of significant strength.

    Rjurik culture is largely clan-based; their titles tend to reflect the individual’s standing in his clan. No one individual has ever dominated the whole of Rjurik and the highest rank that the Rjurik recognize is that of King of a realm. Rjurik kingdoms are roughly equivalent to Anuirean duchies. Rjurik kings often have Major or Great bloodlines; very few have Great Heritage. Rjurik Jarls are province rulers, roughly equivalent to Anuirean Counts, and are almost always blooded, albeit often very weakly.

    Vos culture is very war-like. Vos rulers are not decided on the basis of birth, but on cunning and skill in both war and in personal combat. Most Vos leaders are blooded through virtue of bloodtheft, thus there is no uniform guarantee of bloodline in the Vos leadership. Many successful Vos Tsarevoses eventually gain significant bloodlines through the usurpation of the bloodlines of their fallen enemies. In the distant past, Basil Zariyatam ruled all of Vosgaard as Tsarevic; although the title is gone, his bloodline is certainly of Great Heritage template. Vos Tsars are roughly equivalent to Anuirean Barons; each holds as many provinces as he can claim. Lesser Vos Tsarevoses usually claim a province or less. Tsarevroses often have minor bloodlines, but many are unblooded.

    Each dwarven nation is ruled by a number of Thanes presided over by an Overthane. Most Dwarven Overthanes are blooded, but many Dwarven Thanes are not. As relatively few generations of Dwarves have passed since Deismaar, there are relatively few Dwarven scions, but their bloodlines often run strong.

    The Kings and Queens of the elven nations are almost uniformly strong in bloodline. Immortal, many of the Kings and Queens were personally present at Deismaar. Aside from their titular ruler, most Cerilian elves do not have a rigid system of nobility; their leaders are simply first among equals. Thus, there is not necessarily a clear relationship between an elf's rank and his bloodline.

    The goblin nations were present in Deismaar in force, and their prolific breeding makes their scions among the most numerous worldwide. Luckily, the same breeding patterns have largely diluted the goblin bloodlines. Although powerful goblin bloodlines exist, most are the product of their bearer's success at usurpation. The most predominate derivation among goblins is Azrai, and members of their race are more likely to become minor awnsheghlien than any other.
    Duane Eggert

  6. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Croatia
    Posts
    37
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    In European history there was only 1 archdukal family: the Habsburgs, who invented it for themselves in order to somehow approach the status and prestige of the princely electors of the empire.

    In Birthright I could accept that the Avans and Boeruines invented the title as a symbol of their claim to the throne, but the archdukal title of Alamie is a nonsense

  7. #7
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    4
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie
    In European history there was only 1 archdukal family: the Habsburgs, who invented it for themselves in order to somehow approach the status and prestige of the princely electors of the empire.

    In Birthright I could accept that the Avans and Boeruines invented the title as a symbol of their claim to the throne, but the archdukal title of Alamie is a nonsense
    Personally, I would group the grand dukes into the Arch Dukes of europe category, on the basis that they amounted to Duchies who were indepdant and one of the key facets of the Archduchy of Austria was that it was passed down from male heir to male heir and the inseparability of their territory.

    The Archduke of the habsburgs was created (forged) by Rudolf the fourth, and put him on par with the other electors was created in response of Austria being passed over by the Gold Bull of 1356, which established seven Electors who would choose the Holy Roman Emperors. It was tied into several deeds, many of which were signed by Nero and Caeser, it took until the eighteen hundreds for forgery to be openly stated as forged.

    The title of Archduke allowed Austria to have many of the same rights of the electors without being elector-states, but wouldn't be recogninzed until the Holy Roman Emperor Fredrick III in 1453.
    Dar-dar

  8. #8
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Virginia Beach, Virginia
    Posts
    3,946
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie
    In Birthright I could accept that the Avans and Boeruines invented the title as a symbol of their claim to the throne, but the archdukal title of Alamie is a nonsense
    Which is probably why it was called "Ruins of Empire" and is about the chaos and positioning and posturing of those seeking to claim the Iron Throne.
    Duane Eggert

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie
    In European history there was only 1 archdukal family: the Habsburgs, who invented it for themselves in order to somehow approach the status and prestige of the princely electors of the empire.

    In Birthright I could accept that the Avans and Boeruines invented the title as a symbol of their claim to the throne, but the archdukal title of Alamie is a nonsense


    Since when did anyone say any of this FANTASY world had anything to do with reality, after all, haven't heard any complaints of the exploding gods, giants, dragons, near god-like monsters, etc.etc.etc. If all you're saying is that the Title "archduke" isn't historic, then right, so it isn't historic, we are talking about a made up reality here (hehe, oxymoron if you ever heard one). If you're saying that according to the Birthright world that Alamie shouldn't be an Archduchy because it's not in line with Boeruine, well, there I would agree, it isn't, at this present time. But it was an archduchy because it was the equivalent of 2 duchies in size originally (and then some), and in theory, it was likely charged by the emperors with honorary/titlary (is that a word?) control of the five pikes area, even though they didn't ever control it due to the goblins and such. Since it had the title of Archduchy from the Empire it has no reason to reduce it's status, and doing so would only strengthen Tournen's claim to independance, by nearly offical acceptance of the fact that Tournen no longer "belongs" to Alamie.

  10. #10
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    3
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Titles

    Archduchy(Archduke is the title for one of the 12 founding(original) realms of Anuire. Duke is probably the title given to a realm created after the first 12.

    Although after 550 years the titles are probably used interchangeably.

    This is alluded to in several 2E BR books and also in the DRA magazine timeline.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
BIRTHRIGHT, DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, D&D, the BIRTHRIGHT logo, and the D&D logo are trademarks owned by Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and are used by permission. ©2002-2010 Wizards of the Coast, Inc.