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Thread: Ships?

  1. #1
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    I was wondering if I'm the only one that feels the construction of ships has gotten very difficult?

    Almost all the Anuirean rulers that have some naval power have Galleons with the exception of Brosengae. Most Khinasi realms with naval power have Zebecs.

    The major problem with this though, is that according to the rules, then to construct a Galleon you need a shipyard level 8, and since the shipyard level can't exceed the province level, this means that only Imperial City can construct galleons, so all galleons, also those held by pirates and such, must all be bought in Imperial City?

    The same goes for Zebecs. Their cost of 17 GB means that you need a shipyard level 9 to build it. Since I can't remember any level 9 provinces in Khinasi, then they too order their ships in Imperial City?

    In the old system you could construct any ship as long as you had a level 4 port. Maybe we should put in that instead, otherwise it makes little to no sense.

  2. #2
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    It should be difficult to construct ships. The 2nd ed mechanics were too loose and had no real basis in reality.

    From personal experience (I've worked at the 2nd largest, was the largest up to about 7 years ago) naval shipyard in the world for going on 24 years now and I can verify that ship construction is very expensive and time consuming.

    Even if one tries to say that modern construction is more difficult than medieval construction, that is the level of detail involved, I would also point out that there were more limitations on population (i.e., the number of people who can be dedicated to constructing ships), resources (it was harder to transport the materials needed to construct ships in older times - which is why they were built near the sources of the materials necessary), maintenance costs - skilled labor that didn't maintain proficiency got worse with time (actually this concept applies to both time periods).

    Basically shipyard maintenance costs are probably too low in the BRCS based on resource allocation to maintain proficiency. If one shifts the skill labor to other (more lucrative tasks) then they make a ship much slower due to skills atrophying. On the other hand the profit margin for ship construction is probably also too low.
    Duane Eggert

  3. #3
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    I'm not saying that it's not difficult to construct ships. I know it's a complicated process. But the ships require too large shipyards. It can't be true that you can only have galleons and zebecs constructed in Imperial City, because no other province is large enough for a ship yard that size.

    If we look at history, then both UK, France, Spain, Portugal and probably many more were able to construct galleons. They didn't have to go to Constantinoble to ask for such ships to be constructed.

    If anything, then I might suggest, if there should be the limit for how much you can build, that you may construct ships with 3 times the shipyards size. That way we have more provinces than Imperial City that can construct Galleons and Zebecs.

    If you want to put more upkeep on shipyards, then you'll be hurting the already very wounded Ilien. 2GB to upkeep that they spend for a level 6 shipyard is already hurting them a lot, with their 10GB income and the need for a 7GB court and their castle.

    If you want to prevent people from getting too huge fleets, then simply remove the garrison option from them, so that the cost for a galleon is 1 1/4 GB per turn. Then people might not have fleets that are colossal.

  4. #4
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    There was a lot of discussion a while ago concerning raising the size of a shipyard above the listed limit based but with an increased cost. I'd have to do a more in depth search of older threads (I think it was early this past summer). This was something that was going to be incorporated into the revision of the chapter (remember the chapter has not been revised yet so you are still looking at the playtest version). I think Ian posted the suggestion, but I can't recall.


    If we look at history, then both UK, France, Spain, Portugal and probably many more were able to construct galleons. They didn't have to go to Constantinoble to ask for such ships to be constructed
    Are we assuming that only Constantinople was of high enough level (in BR terms)? I wouldn't. I think in each of your specific examples there was at least one city that was of sufficient level to accomplish this and most had their equivalent.
    Duane Eggert

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    Senior Member Thomas_Percy's Avatar
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    I don't see any reason to construct galleons at all if they are expensive and hard to build.
    In the world where
    one Control Weather spell or
    single aquatic elf with Warp Wood or
    single dire octopus controlled by spellcaster or
    etc. etc.
    can destroy all the fleet, there is no sense for building big and expensive ships.
    Caravels, cogs (sailing ships) and coasters are enough to transport mass, cheap things or soldiers for trade routes and rulers.

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    I used Constantinoble since I seem to remember that as being the largest city in the past. So Imperial City would be Constantinoble in my example.

    As for why to choose Galleons over cogs/caravels? (Cogs and Caravels are about the same strength, just Cogs being slower), then the galleons ability to carry three units is a definite advantage when you are going to attack someone or board someone.

    Also the mentioning of magic getting involved, then I personally feel that a battlecaster is better in a strong, well-defended and powerful unit than in one of three weaker ones.

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    In a message dated 1/26/05 6:37:53 AM Eastern Standard Time,

    brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:



    << The major problem with this though, is that according to the rules, then

    to construct a Galleon you need a shipyard level 8, and since the shipyard

    level can`t exceed the province level, this means that only Imperial City can

    construct galleons, so all galleons, also those held by pirates and such, must all

    be bought in Imperial City? >>



    Maybe those rulers did go to IC for them, as a status symbol? Doesn`t work

    for the zebecs, though.



    Perhaps one could build "outsize" ships at smaller shipyards for

    increased cost and time.



    Lee.

  8. #8
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Aquatic elf in Birthright? Forget the commonality of high level magic found in Forgotten Realms and go with the lower level spellcasters of BR. There are not many wizards in BR (those that can cast greater magic) so it becomes greatly limited.

    While it is possible for high level cleric (or druid) to do this. The caster still has to be in the area since the spell is centered on the caster.

    Galleons and Zebecs are warships whose primary function is to transport ships. a caravel or cog can carry a single mounted unit, but as written a Zebec cannot - at one time we discussed the fact that the Zebec&#39;s numbers were too low.

    Basically a galleon can carry 3 foot units or 2 mounted units. So getting troops to a given location is quicker with it than a caravel or cog. In combat a galleon and zebec both pound the cravel and cog into obliteration, again they are war ships and not efficient for use in a sea trade route, while caravels and cogs are more suited for that function. Caravels and cogs are not about the same strength as a galleon. A difference of 1 hit for a military unit is tremendous. The galleons defense rating, and melee attack are much higher.
    Duane Eggert

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    There are fewer than 150 true mages in Cerilia (Book of Magecraft). Of those we have maybe 50 in the College of Sorcery, since they have a dozen students who train 3-10 years. Then the 10 council leaders. Then the maybe 20 other mages around Anuire, including the realm mages.

    Other than these, we have 3 mages in Rjurik lands, a couple of handfulls in Brecht lands. Then I&#39;m not sure how many in Khinasi lands, but it can&#39;t be many more than 30, since we also got the Elves and they really have at least 30 mages too.

    Given these numbers, that would leave your chance of encountering a Wizard on sea insanely low, and of those encountered you&#39;ll not find many of high enough level to cast fireball.

  10. #10
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    I don&#39;t know where the thread discussing this is, I do remember the most pertinenant changes that were generally agreed upon.

    Each shipyard could build ships of up to 2.5 GB of its level. So there would be 4 citys capable of building galleons.

    For every 2 levels, only 1 court action could be used per month. So a level 4 shipyard could use up to 2 court actions a month to build ships.

    For every 2 levels, 1 ship could be docked within the shipyard without upkeep cost.

    Of course, none of these changes have been voted on so are still up for discussion.
    Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

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