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Thread: Balancing Bloodline.
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02-22-2004, 10:10 AM #1
I`ve been mulling something over for a few weeks now and I`m curious what
folks in the BR community think about the idea that instead of using ECL,
character levels, etc. to balance the BR bloodline system one could just
consider it inventory and come up with a system of balancing it from
that. That is, a bloodline and blood abilities might be assigned a certain
gp value and that could be computed into the character`s effective level
for the purpose of adventure design, CR, etc. Using such a system of
balancing bloodline one could go with a system very similar to the original
bloodline system (or one could have whatever expansions on the system that
one likes) with no effect on the overall character class system. There`d
be no need to portray bloodline as an ECL, character class, or whatever 3e
mechanic one prefers. The bloodline system could then remain outside the
character class system on the whole--and still be balanced by being
factored into the character`s overall equipment.
Since many blood abilities function like magic items it would be feasible
to base gp values on that, or one could come up with a more general
system. There are no existing rules that I`ve seen for determining what
the effect of having more or less equipment in one`s inventory than is
typically assumed that I`ve seen, but there are a few simple methods for
doing that. Furthermore, since one can increase, decrease or lose one`s
bloodline relatively easily, and the increments of increase/decrease are
much more subtle on the whole than the rather broad character class/ECL
system it seems more prudent to utilize the more general system of
inventory. Lastly, since one can lose bloodline entirely, it seems like it
shouldn`t be equated to XP since any loss has to be justified somehow
through that system.
Each point of bloodline score might be worth 100gp (just as an example)
while blood abilities might be rated according to their strength; minor =
500gp; major = 1,000gp; great = 2,000gp. A character with major, 38
bloodline, two minor and one major abilities then might be considered to
have 38 x 100 = 3,800 + 500 + 500 + 1,000 = 5,800gp worth of "equipment" on
his person (plus any actual equipment s/he carries.) That total value can
then be compared to the amount of money that is "standard" for such a
character to determine an overall EL for the purpose of determining encounters.
No worrying about bloodline`s ECL, XP costs to gain the appropriate "level"
in a scion character class, no need to portray bloodline as anything other
than what it probably is best described as--something extraneous to the
character class system itself.
Thoughts?
Gary
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02-22-2004, 01:09 PM #2
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Originally posted by geeman@Feb 22 2004, 05:10 AM
I`ve been mulling something over for a few weeks now and I`m curious what
folks in the BR community think about the idea that instead of using ECL,
character levels, etc. to balance the BR bloodline system one could just
consider it inventory and come up with a system of balancing it from
that. That is, a bloodline and blood abilities might be assigned a certain
gp value and that could be computed into the character`s effective level
for the purpose of adventure design, CR, etc. Using such a system of
balancing bloodline one could go with a system very similar to the original
bloodline system (or one could have whatever expansions on the system that
one likes) with no effect on the overall character class system. There`d
be no need to portray bloodline as an ECL, character class, or whatever 3e
mechanic one prefers. The bloodline system could then remain outside the
character class system on the whole--and still be balanced by being
factored into the character`s overall equipment.
Since many blood abilities function like magic items it would be feasible
to base gp values on that, or one could come up with a more general
system. There are no existing rules that I`ve seen for determining what
the effect of having more or less equipment in one`s inventory than is
typically assumed that I`ve seen, but there are a few simple methods for
doing that. Furthermore, since one can increase, decrease or lose one`s
bloodline relatively easily, and the increments of increase/decrease are
much more subtle on the whole than the rather broad character class/ECL
system it seems more prudent to utilize the more general system of
inventory. Lastly, since one can lose bloodline entirely, it seems like it
shouldn`t be equated to XP since any loss has to be justified somehow
through that system.
Each point of bloodline score might be worth 100gp (just as an example)
while blood abilities might be rated according to their strength; minor =
500gp; major = 1,000gp; great = 2,000gp. A character with major, 38
bloodline, two minor and one major abilities then might be considered to
have 38 x 100 = 3,800 + 500 + 500 + 1,000 = 5,800gp worth of "equipment" on
his person (plus any actual equipment s/he carries.) That total value can
then be compared to the amount of money that is "standard" for such a
character to determine an overall EL for the purpose of determining encounters.
No worrying about bloodline`s ECL, XP costs to gain the appropriate "level"
in a scion character class, no need to portray bloodline as anything other
than what it probably is best described as--something extraneous to the
character class system itself.
Thoughts?
Gary
This is almost exactly the concept of the system the Slade and Mark V put together for the variants of the bloodline system that we presented to the community and voted on back in May. Revisiting things definitely keeps things form moving forward IMO.Duane Eggert
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02-22-2004, 10:10 PM #3
At 02:09 PM 2/22/2004 +0100, irdeggman wrote:
>This is almost exactly the concept of the system the Slade and Mark V put
>together for the variants of the bloodline system that we presented to the
>community and voted on back in May.
Unless there were some changes to that document that I never saw this
suggestion is actually quite different from Option B (or any of the
proposals, all of ) which used XP to "pay" for bloodline either as a
character class or through ECL. XP and ECL are not directly related to the
cost of a bloodline in this suggestion. There are no XP costs, and no
ECL. Nobody "earns" their blood abilities. Characters could start out at
1st level with any bloodline AND all the blood abilities from that bloodline.
This suggestion would just be a way of computing that character`s EL with a
bloodline. It might equate to giving a 1st level character a powerful set
of magic items. He doesn`t have to earn those items retroactively after
character generation. The DM does, however, have some tools to recognize
that character`s abilities relative to a commoner.
Gary
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02-22-2004, 10:37 PM #4Originally posted by geeman
I`ve been mulling something over for a few weeks now and I`m curious what
folks in the BR community think about the idea that instead of using ECL,
character levels, etc. to balance the BR bloodline system one could just
consider it inventory and come up with a system of balancing it from
that. That is, a bloodline and blood abilities might be assigned a certain
gp value and that could be computed into the character`s effective level
for the purpose of adventure design, CR, etc.
For those, who dont know it: Its a feat presented in the Book of Exalted Deeds and a must for nearly every monk (If they would exist :P ) and many druids of good alignment...May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!
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02-22-2004, 11:45 PM #5
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I don't know about you, but I don't let my characters just go out and buy magical items.
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02-23-2004, 12:30 AM #6
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> Sounds not bad, but if I would have to balance my character in this
> manner, I would take a great bloodline and would possess no equipment
> at all (apart from a walking stick and musty clothes). Naturally this
> character would swear the āVow of Povertyā at first level (If
> human, otherwise at 3rd). :D
>
> For those, who donāt know it: Itās a feat presented in the āBook
> of Exalted Deedsā and a must for nearly every monk (If they would
> exist :P ) and many druids of good alignment...
I don`t know what that feat is, but it doesn`t sound particularly
appropriate for scions in Birthright... especially those of a Great
bloodline...
--Lord RahvinNOTE: Messages posted by Birthright-L are automatically inserted posts originating from the mailing list linked to the forum.
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02-23-2004, 01:10 AM #7
At 12:45 AM 2/23/2004 +0100, ecliptic wrote:
> I don`t know about you, but I don`t let my characters just go out and
> buy magical items.
Actually, I think the implication there was that he would sell all his
equipment or otherwise dispose of it. Buying magic items in BR is its own
little subtopic in which we have the relative scarcity of magic items in
the setting juxtaposed with the rules for regent accepting magic items in
lieu of monetary taxes, so it doesn`t really matter if character can just
go out and buy magical items or not.
BUT! Before we delve too far into that kind of thing, I don`t know if it
would really be an issue for players to give up their magic items in order
to balance their bloodlines. Under the proposed rules they could still
keep their inventory--they could even add to it beyond what is normal for
characters of their level. That increased inventory would just be factored
into their EL (not ECL) for the purpose of determining the CR and number of
the creatures they encounter in adventures. That`s it. A 10th level
character with the inventory of a 14th level character (150,000gp) would be
considered EL 12. He doesn`t have to spend XP to get that, he doesn`t have
to take levels in a character class or an ECL, he doesn`t have to do
anything at all. The DM just uses that EL to determine encounters and
awards at the adventure level. That`s it.
There`s not any real need that I can see for players to forego magic items
in order to balance their inventory values with their character
level. They would get lower XP awards in order to compensate for their
increased power--kind of like having a system for computing the XP awards
for the relative ease of encounters of a 1st level character with a +5
vorpal sword, and if one wanted to increase the amount of awards then he
could get rid of magic items, but then he`d be less efficient at
accomplishing encounters and would complete fewer of them, so it wouldn`t
be a very effective strategy for earning XP.
Gary
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02-23-2004, 01:50 AM #8
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02-23-2004, 01:50 AM #9
Gary is correct to limit his analysis to xp awards from encounters, because
it would be most accurate in that role. I would be quite cautious using
such a calculation to assign encounters, while I would be quite content
using such a calculation to award xp.
Take the example of the 1st level character with the +5 vorpal sword. I
good example for my purpose here. If I have an opponant who can do nothing
more stuning than disarm the character, I have suddenly reduced this
character to a 1st level character. If I had assumed the ECL of the
character really was 8th level (15th level inventory + 1st level character /
2) I might have presnted an 8th level encounter, which could much more
easily deprive the character of his weapon.
The example is extream, but it makes a point that should not be lost when
10th level characters have 14th level powers (the point of this thread) or
equipment.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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02-23-2004, 02:10 AM #10
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>> Naturally this character would swear the "Vow of Poverty" at first
>> level
>> (If human, otherwise at 3rd). :D
>
> If one can get that feat from circumstance rather than inclination then
> I`ve got it.... What are the benes?
Women are marginally more impressed when you explain your lack of a car,
house, or job. For birthdays, holidays, and anniversaries you can give
a conceited excuse instead of a present.
Hmm... This feat may be a bit overpowered... Gary, if circumstances
have given you this feat, you may have to suffer an xp penalty that
stunts your development...
--Lord RahvinNOTE: Messages posted by Birthright-L are automatically inserted posts originating from the mailing list linked to the forum.
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