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  1. #1
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    I`ve been mulling something over for a few weeks now and I`m curious what

    folks in the BR community think about the idea that instead of using ECL,

    character levels, etc. to balance the BR bloodline system one could just

    consider it inventory and come up with a system of balancing it from

    that. That is, a bloodline and blood abilities might be assigned a certain

    gp value and that could be computed into the character`s effective level

    for the purpose of adventure design, CR, etc. Using such a system of

    balancing bloodline one could go with a system very similar to the original

    bloodline system (or one could have whatever expansions on the system that

    one likes) with no effect on the overall character class system. There`d

    be no need to portray bloodline as an ECL, character class, or whatever 3e

    mechanic one prefers. The bloodline system could then remain outside the

    character class system on the whole--and still be balanced by being

    factored into the character`s overall equipment.



    Since many blood abilities function like magic items it would be feasible

    to base gp values on that, or one could come up with a more general

    system. There are no existing rules that I`ve seen for determining what

    the effect of having more or less equipment in one`s inventory than is

    typically assumed that I`ve seen, but there are a few simple methods for

    doing that. Furthermore, since one can increase, decrease or lose one`s

    bloodline relatively easily, and the increments of increase/decrease are

    much more subtle on the whole than the rather broad character class/ECL

    system it seems more prudent to utilize the more general system of

    inventory. Lastly, since one can lose bloodline entirely, it seems like it

    shouldn`t be equated to XP since any loss has to be justified somehow

    through that system.



    Each point of bloodline score might be worth 100gp (just as an example)

    while blood abilities might be rated according to their strength; minor =

    500gp; major = 1,000gp; great = 2,000gp. A character with major, 38

    bloodline, two minor and one major abilities then might be considered to

    have 38 x 100 = 3,800 + 500 + 500 + 1,000 = 5,800gp worth of "equipment" on

    his person (plus any actual equipment s/he carries.) That total value can

    then be compared to the amount of money that is "standard" for such a

    character to determine an overall EL for the purpose of determining encounters.



    No worrying about bloodline`s ECL, XP costs to gain the appropriate "level"

    in a scion character class, no need to portray bloodline as anything other

    than what it probably is best described as--something extraneous to the

    character class system itself.



    Thoughts?



    Gary

  2. #2
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by geeman@Feb 22 2004, 05:10 AM
    I`ve been mulling something over for a few weeks now and I`m curious what

    folks in the BR community think about the idea that instead of using ECL,

    character levels, etc. to balance the BR bloodline system one could just

    consider it inventory and come up with a system of balancing it from

    that. That is, a bloodline and blood abilities might be assigned a certain

    gp value and that could be computed into the character`s effective level

    for the purpose of adventure design, CR, etc. Using such a system of

    balancing bloodline one could go with a system very similar to the original

    bloodline system (or one could have whatever expansions on the system that

    one likes) with no effect on the overall character class system. There`d

    be no need to portray bloodline as an ECL, character class, or whatever 3e

    mechanic one prefers. The bloodline system could then remain outside the

    character class system on the whole--and still be balanced by being

    factored into the character`s overall equipment.



    Since many blood abilities function like magic items it would be feasible

    to base gp values on that, or one could come up with a more general

    system. There are no existing rules that I`ve seen for determining what

    the effect of having more or less equipment in one`s inventory than is

    typically assumed that I`ve seen, but there are a few simple methods for

    doing that. Furthermore, since one can increase, decrease or lose one`s

    bloodline relatively easily, and the increments of increase/decrease are

    much more subtle on the whole than the rather broad character class/ECL

    system it seems more prudent to utilize the more general system of

    inventory. Lastly, since one can lose bloodline entirely, it seems like it

    shouldn`t be equated to XP since any loss has to be justified somehow

    through that system.



    Each point of bloodline score might be worth 100gp (just as an example)

    while blood abilities might be rated according to their strength; minor =

    500gp; major = 1,000gp; great = 2,000gp. A character with major, 38

    bloodline, two minor and one major abilities then might be considered to

    have 38 x 100 = 3,800 + 500 + 500 + 1,000 = 5,800gp worth of "equipment" on

    his person (plus any actual equipment s/he carries.) That total value can

    then be compared to the amount of money that is "standard" for such a

    character to determine an overall EL for the purpose of determining encounters.



    No worrying about bloodline`s ECL, XP costs to gain the appropriate "level"

    in a scion character class, no need to portray bloodline as anything other

    than what it probably is best described as--something extraneous to the

    character class system itself.



    Thoughts?



    Gary

    Gary,

    This is almost exactly the concept of the system the Slade and Mark V put together for the variants of the bloodline system that we presented to the community and voted on back in May. Revisiting things definitely keeps things form moving forward IMO.
    Duane Eggert

  3. #3
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 02:09 PM 2/22/2004 +0100, irdeggman wrote:



    >This is almost exactly the concept of the system the Slade and Mark V put

    >together for the variants of the bloodline system that we presented to the

    >community and voted on back in May.



    Unless there were some changes to that document that I never saw this

    suggestion is actually quite different from Option B (or any of the

    proposals, all of ) which used XP to "pay" for bloodline either as a

    character class or through ECL. XP and ECL are not directly related to the

    cost of a bloodline in this suggestion. There are no XP costs, and no

    ECL. Nobody "earns" their blood abilities. Characters could start out at

    1st level with any bloodline AND all the blood abilities from that bloodline.



    This suggestion would just be a way of computing that character`s EL with a

    bloodline. It might equate to giving a 1st level character a powerful set

    of magic items. He doesn`t have to earn those items retroactively after

    character generation. The DM does, however, have some tools to recognize

    that character`s abilities relative to a commoner.



    Gary

  4. #4
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Originally posted by geeman
    I`ve been mulling something over for a few weeks now and I`m curious what
    folks in the BR community think about the idea that instead of using ECL,
    character levels, etc. to balance the BR bloodline system one could just
    consider it inventory and come up with a system of balancing it from
    that. That is, a bloodline and blood abilities might be assigned a certain
    gp value and that could be computed into the character`s effective level
    for the purpose of adventure design, CR, etc.
    Sounds not bad, but if I would have to balance my character in this manner, I would take a great bloodline and would possess no equipment at all (apart from a walking stick and musty clothes). Naturally this character would swear the “Vow of Poverty” at first level (If human, otherwise at 3rd).

    For those, who don’t know it: It’s a feat presented in the “Book of Exalted Deeds” and a must for nearly every monk (If they would exist :P ) and many druids of good alignment...
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  5. #5
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    I don't know about you, but I don't let my characters just go out and buy magical items.

  6. #6
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    > Sounds not bad, but if I would have to balance my character in this

    > manner, I would take a great bloodline and would possess no equipment

    > at all (apart from a walking stick and musty clothes). Naturally this

    > character would swear the ā€œVow of Povertyā€ at first level (If

    > human, otherwise at 3rd). :D

    >

    > For those, who donā€™t know it: Itā€™s a feat presented in the ā€œBook

    > of Exalted Deedsā€ and a must for nearly every monk (If they would

    > exist :P ) and many druids of good alignment...



    I don`t know what that feat is, but it doesn`t sound particularly

    appropriate for scions in Birthright... especially those of a Great

    bloodline...



    --Lord Rahvin
    NOTE: Messages posted by Birthright-L are automatically inserted posts originating from the mailing list linked to the forum.

  7. #7
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 12:45 AM 2/23/2004 +0100, ecliptic wrote:



    > I don`t know about you, but I don`t let my characters just go out and

    > buy magical items.



    Actually, I think the implication there was that he would sell all his

    equipment or otherwise dispose of it. Buying magic items in BR is its own

    little subtopic in which we have the relative scarcity of magic items in

    the setting juxtaposed with the rules for regent accepting magic items in

    lieu of monetary taxes, so it doesn`t really matter if character can just

    go out and buy magical items or not.



    BUT! Before we delve too far into that kind of thing, I don`t know if it

    would really be an issue for players to give up their magic items in order

    to balance their bloodlines. Under the proposed rules they could still

    keep their inventory--they could even add to it beyond what is normal for

    characters of their level. That increased inventory would just be factored

    into their EL (not ECL) for the purpose of determining the CR and number of

    the creatures they encounter in adventures. That`s it. A 10th level

    character with the inventory of a 14th level character (150,000gp) would be

    considered EL 12. He doesn`t have to spend XP to get that, he doesn`t have

    to take levels in a character class or an ECL, he doesn`t have to do

    anything at all. The DM just uses that EL to determine encounters and

    awards at the adventure level. That`s it.



    There`s not any real need that I can see for players to forego magic items

    in order to balance their inventory values with their character

    level. They would get lower XP awards in order to compensate for their

    increased power--kind of like having a system for computing the XP awards

    for the relative ease of encounters of a 1st level character with a +5

    vorpal sword, and if one wanted to increase the amount of awards then he

    could get rid of magic items, but then he`d be less efficient at

    accomplishing encounters and would complete fewer of them, so it wouldn`t

    be a very effective strategy for earning XP.



    Gary

  8. #8
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 11:37 PM 2/22/2004 +0100, Ariadne wrote:



    >Naturally this character would swear the "Vow of Poverty" at first level

    >(If human, otherwise at 3rd). :D



    If one can get that feat from circumstance rather than inclination then

    I`ve got it.... What are the benes?



    G

  9. #9
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Gary is correct to limit his analysis to xp awards from encounters, because

    it would be most accurate in that role. I would be quite cautious using

    such a calculation to assign encounters, while I would be quite content

    using such a calculation to award xp.



    Take the example of the 1st level character with the +5 vorpal sword. I

    good example for my purpose here. If I have an opponant who can do nothing

    more stuning than disarm the character, I have suddenly reduced this

    character to a 1st level character. If I had assumed the ECL of the

    character really was 8th level (15th level inventory + 1st level character /

    2) I might have presnted an 8th level encounter, which could much more

    easily deprive the character of his weapon.



    The example is extream, but it makes a point that should not be lost when

    10th level characters have 14th level powers (the point of this thread) or

    equipment.



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

  10. #10
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    >> Naturally this character would swear the "Vow of Poverty" at first

    >> level

    >> (If human, otherwise at 3rd). :D

    >

    > If one can get that feat from circumstance rather than inclination then

    > I`ve got it.... What are the benes?



    Women are marginally more impressed when you explain your lack of a car,

    house, or job. For birthdays, holidays, and anniversaries you can give

    a conceited excuse instead of a present.



    Hmm... This feat may be a bit overpowered... Gary, if circumstances

    have given you this feat, you may have to suffer an xp penalty that

    stunts your development...



    --Lord Rahvin
    NOTE: Messages posted by Birthright-L are automatically inserted posts originating from the mailing list linked to the forum.

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