Why Hasn't The Gorgon Won Yet?

[Denakhan]

Hiya.

I think you're thinking in "meta-game" terms (re: thinking of "Rule X does this, and Rule Y does that, so Rule Z doesn't come into play" etc.).

How do I put this...3e can't handle "Epic Level", dispite WotC's attempt. A single d20 isn't enough of a range when you slap on +56...the d20 becomes pretty much pointless. In short, 3e "falls apart". So only taking into what can/can't happen by the rules as written, well, there is no reason why the Gorgon hasn't taken over (or any number of other significant bad guys).

If you look at it as a "what could happen, regardless of what the rules say", then you can easily see why the Gorgon doesn't wade into combat; too many uncertain factors. If you were using another game system, say, Rolemaster, GURPS, or HackMaster, then it could become much more obvious. In RM and HM at least, critical hits can kill. Period. HP total notwithstanding. Criticals in 3e are rather pathetic and predictable by comparison. You can crunch the numbers and in a worst case scenario say (just pulling a number out of the air here) that he could take 148hp damage in one hit...which isn't enough to kill him. Lots of damage, yes, but not a "poof you're dead" critical that other games can have.

Going back to purly 3e terms, I'd say that the reason he doesn't do it is because he would have everyon against him...his "Good" enemies, and his "Evil" enemies would have a temporary reason to band together. The Gorgon vs. a trio of "good domains" is one thing; The Gorgon vs. a trio of "good domains", a pair of "evil domains" and three "neutral domains" is quite another. The Gorgon knows that his enemies would band together to stop him if he took such blatant and in-your-face steps...so he tries to do it on the QT.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Osprey@Nov 26 2003, 11:50 AM
The only answer I've found satisfying is that he really has no desire to conquer Anuire. He's in it for the blood. Harvesting bloodlines is his real goal, and his generational rampages are in fact excellent means of getting the targeted regents to come out on the open field and be easy targets for him...and to waste their resources and lose a generation of resources and development, and keep Anuire fractured and stagnant if they start getting too advanced and unified. I imagine that this state of chaos and inter-realm strife is exactly how the Gorgon likes Anuire; it makes his harvesting easier, and keeps his own lands fairly secure.

Ultimately, I think the Gorgon sees his quest for blood power as a quest for godhood. Bloodlines are the power of the gods, and none knows this better than Raesene. So wouldn't there come a point at which all that blood power would reach critical mass, and the ascension to godhood could take place? It's already hinted at the Gorgon may already have achieved demigod status (divine rank 0 or 1?) and can grant some minor spells to followers. But it seems he's really just a proxy of Azrai at this point, which probably galls him to no end. I'd guess he really hopes to ascend as the replacement of Azrai - heheh, imagine him gaining that lesser god status. I reckon the first piece of agenda would be to eliminate his rivals, Belinik and Kreisha, and replace them as a sole god of evil. Ah, deicide...do you think the gods could be "bloodthefted?" How would they like the bite of tighmaevriel, do you think? Heh heh heh...

-Osprey

I actually totally disagree with this one. IMO the only reason the Gorgon hasn't or didn't ascend to godhood is the fact that he is too tied into the material possesions and can't give up his desire for the Iron Throne - the one thing that was denied him during his 'normal' life, being the bastard child he was he had no legitimate claim to the throne, or couldn't make one due to the Roeles still being alive.

If he could give up is overwhelming drive to 'own' Anuire and the throne then he could complete his transformation to godhood.

Now for the 'real reason' why - it is one of those mysteries that was left to the indivudal DMs to intepret as they saw fit to fit into their own story line. I also tend to agree with Ariadne on if he conquers Anuire then the rest is well anti-climatic after all isn't it? That was one of the problems I had with the original Birthright game design - it had a built in ending. Either the Gorgon won or he was defeated, once that happened the game is mostly over - the rest is just filler.

[RaspK_FOG]

I am currently rereading (and finishing) "the Falcon and the Wolf", in which Richard Baker plainly has the Gorgon say such thinks that prove he is only interested in unbalancing the surrounding lands constantly and getting power one piece after the other:

• "I do very few things only because they gratify me. I bear Mhoried no particular malice, at least no more than any other Anuirean state. Mhoried is to be destroyed because it is one of a handful of linchpins, critical powers that hold Anuire together. And even more importantly than that, Mhoried is to be destroyed because it is necessary for Ghoere’s elevation."
• "I elevate Ghoere not for Tuorel’s sake, but for my own. I will build him into a great power, a warlord so strong he will dare to claim the Iron Throne. This will lead to an inevitable conflict between Ghoere and his supporters on the one hand, and those who can resist him on the other. In a year or two, all of Anuire will be immersed in the greatest war since Michael set out to claim his throne. This will be to my advantage."
• "Allow the Wolf of Ghoere to slay the young Mhor and claim his bloodline and kingdom. In a year or two, when the time is right, I shall call upon Tuorel and absorb both the Mhoried and Tuorel bloodlines."

[bulletmagnet]

I'd like to think there is a sort of "Darth Vader" mentality going on inside the Gorgon's mind. Is he evil,most certantly,however think for a second what if there is still some semblance of good left in him and sometimes he longs for or misses the old him.I mostly agree with iregg and disagree with ospeys's take on why.I like to think of things in more in a deeper spiriualy motivated world.Rather than a straight up "kill em all" mentality which seems to be prevelant on this forum.

[Osprey]

I'd like to think there is a sort of "Darth Vader" mentality going on inside the Gorgon's mind. Is he evil,most certantly,however think for a second what if there is still some semblance of good left in him and sometimes he longs for or misses the old him.I mostly agree with iregg and disagree with ospeys's take on why.I like to think of things in more in a deeper spiriualy motivated world.Rather than a straight up "kill em all" mentality which seems to be prevelant on this forum.

Along those lines, but giving the Gorgon less personal credit for having any shreds of goodness himself, is that Michael Roele's spirit still haunts him. A friend of mine suggested that if the Gorgon did bloodtheft Michael, imagine if Michale's bloodline was so strong that the Gorgon's blood simply couldn't fully absorb it. So Michael Roele's voice is like a ghost in his his mind, the maddening voice of conscience that the Raesene had silenced within himself long ago. Now, for the last 500 years, this voice has been there, even giving him occasional urges to be...merciful, or kind, or happy...and when his thoughts turn toward conquering Anuire, the land that should have been ripe for the picking for 5 centuries now, then the voice becomes distracting to the point of madness. In fact, Raesene may now be going mad, and the more he tries to focus on his conquest, the faster his descent into that pit of darkness, that doom of immortals...

[bulletmagnet]

Along those lines, but giving the Gorgon less personal credit for having any shreds of goodness himself, is that Michael Roele's spirit still haunts him. A friend of mine suggested that if the Gorgon did bloodtheft Michael, imagine if Michale's bloodline was so strong that the Gorgon's blood simply couldn't fully absorb it. So Michael Roele's voice is like a ghost in his his mind, the maddening voice of conscience that the Raesene had silenced within himself long ago. Now, for the last 500 years, this voice has been there, even giving him occasional urges to be...merciful, or kind, or happy...and when his thoughts turn toward conquering Anuire, the land that should have been ripe for the picking for 5 centuries now, then the voice becomes distracting to the point of madness. In fact, Raesene may now be going mad, and the more he tries to focus on his conquest, the faster his descent into that pit of darkness, that doom of immortals...

This is more in line with why anuire hasnt been anilhiated yet. Lets not forget that there are others also in the mix that the gorgon must keep his eye on i.e white wich,magian,etc..

[sebastol_enlien]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Mar 17 2004, 03:53 AM
I am currently rereading (and finishing) "the Falcon and the Wolf", in which Richard Baker plainly has the Gorgon say such thinks that prove he is only interested in unbalancing the surrounding lands constantly and getting power one piece after the other:

• "I do very few things only because they gratify me. I bear Mhoried no particular malice, at least no more than any other Anuirean state. Mhoried is to be destroyed because it is one of a handful of linchpins, critical powers that hold Anuire together. And even more importantly than that, Mhoried is to be destroyed because it is necessary for Ghoere’s elevation."
• "I elevate Ghoere not for Tuorel’s sake, but for my own. I will build him into a great power, a warlord so strong he will dare to claim the Iron Throne. This will lead to an inevitable conflict between Ghoere and his supporters on the one hand, and those who can resist him on the other. In a year or two, all of Anuire will be immersed in the greatest war since Michael set out to claim his throne. This will be to my advantage."
• "Allow the Wolf of Ghoere to slay the young Mhor and claim his bloodline and kingdom. In a year or two, when the time is right, I shall call upon Tuorel and absorb both the Mhoried and Tuorel bloodlines."

Sorry for the abrupt yank. But the topic for this series of post is "Why Hasn't The Gorgon Won Yet?"

So here's my humble two cents:

The Gorgon, being the super-uber villian that he is, most likely has the long life blood ability as a great ability. So he can take his sweet time taking over Anuire, like cat toying with her mouse before biting it off.

If the Gorgon had the long life blood ability as a major ability. That would mean he has aged the equivalent of only twenty years...

But

What if the Gorgon had the long life blood ability only as a minor ability? That would mean, that after half a millenia, that Gorgon might be driven to finally take the Iron Throne; because he's becoming old. He'll want the Iron Throne for all the mystical abilities that the throne supposed grants to the invested regent that sits upon it right?

And if you follow the exact meta-plot of the "core" rulebook for Birthright, then well, your PCs will be living in an era where the Gorgon is seriously contemplating taking over all of Anuire for all wouldn't it?

That's where the classic D&D adventures of seemingly underpowered heros beating the odds and defeating the villian!

Because really, from a writers point of view, why else would you place the setting of the game at precisely half a millenia after the fall of the original empire? Otherwise why not 300 years or 600 years after the fall?

Then again, maybe my imagination is just running a little wild just now

[dekar]

i'm new here but i thought i would give my opinion on why the gorgon hasn't won yet. throughout the entire historical writings of the boxed set and "blood enemies" there a subtle hints that the gorgons power is only consolidated in his home territory. these are only theories but hey they could make some pretty interesting reasons why he hasn't left and destroyed all of the world. 1) he maybe somehow trying to figure out how to leave his domain without losing his powers (he has some levels of wizard and he holds dominion over all the lay lines in his kingdom. maybe he is trying to find a magical way around it.) 2) he might fear the the other awhnsheilen will rise up against him ( i personally would like to see the raven and the gorgon go at it&#33 3) he might just be working on a way to be a god (hey its good to be a god&#33


these are just added theories to already many. I personally agree that he just is biding his time and waiting for the right moment to strike after all he can wait for all erternity.

well anyway thanks for allowing me to post my opinion.....whoa what about a Rhoube Manslayer lead elven army against the gorgons crown now that would be a cool battle.

[Mark_Aurel]

The Ruins of Empire describes how the walls of Kal-Saitharak 'hum with confined power' or some such. As powerful as the Gorgon is in his place of power, he may not be elsewhere.

Historically, while the Empire still existed, the Gorgon's forces were too weak to conquer. When Michael Roele died at the Gorgon's hands, it may be that the effect was that the Gorgon's bloodline and power was somehow anchored to his home.

I think that's the best way of reunifying several ideas. On the one hand, the Gorgon can't go out himself and beat everyone up. On the other hand, no coalition of armies could conquer his lands unless they brought along some epic heroes. Since his armies aren't strong enough to straight up conquer everything, the Gorgon has to rely a lot on intrigues and deceit rather than blunt force, and he had to do so even more so back during the Empire just to survive.

Essentially, the Gorgon would be in a tantalizing situation - for centuries, he's had the power to conquer Anuire, but not the ability to use that power.

If I were to write up how to reflect that idea in game mechanics, I'd say the Gorgon loses his bloodline, bloodline abilities, and all abilities reliant upon those when he travels beyond Kal-Saitharak. That would include spellcasting. As a further flavorful element, I might rule that any items created or spells cast by the Gorgon become inert as well, except realm spell. That'd leave him reliant upon minion spellcasters for many purposes.

[Amaranth]

The Gorgon hasn't won yet probably because he couldn't win the war if he started one. Nothing would make the Anuireans unite together faster than an organized threat from The Gorgon. Also, the elves and dwarves, who live uncomfortably close to his realm, would also join the fray. I doubt Manslayer would stand by and let Tuarhievel be overrun by big G, so he would probably ally with the resistance, too.

The Gorgon is certainly a mighty opponent, but he could not win a war against a united Anuire/Elven Empire.