Energy Types

[Ariadne]

In my last adventure I faced a few situation that gave me a question. I play a cleric and did fight some undead (OK, nothing new). Well, now I tried to fight shadows and if I remember right an incorporal undead can ignore 50% of damage from a corporal source (but not from force effects).

Now my question:
If I damage an incorporal undead with positive energy (through a converted "cure" spell), can he ignore this to 50%? Or in other words: Is positive energy some kind of force effect?

[Xeres]

Originally posted by Ariadne@Jul 11 2003, 12:23 PM

Now my question:
If I damage an incorporal undead with positive energy (through a converted "cure" spell), can he ignore this to 50%? Or in other words: Is positive energy some kind of force effect?

As far as i know a couple of incorporal undead can only be hit by Silver or +1 weapons,and because silver weapons are considerd holy they are of positive energy, but they are corporal and thus a forse.
so if you damage an incorporal undead with a converted cure spell your hand will be a positive forse with full effect.

I hope i understud your question and helped you with my reply.

Xeres

[CMonkey]

silver weapons are considerd holy

No they aren't.

they are of positive energy, but they are corporal and thus a forse

Even if they were (which they aren't), your conclusion is spurious. Silver weapons (or any + weapon for that matter) are by no means "force effects".

Spells with the "[force]" descriptor are force effects - nothing else is unless it specifically states otherwise.

CM.

[Ariadne]

Well, with "force effect" I meant, what I said. A force, same as magic missile or wall of force. Those things can hit uncorporal undead as well as ghost tough weapons. I don't know if I can add positive energy to this list...

[kgauck]

uestion. What is positive energy if its not the

opposite energy of undeath? It would seem to me that positive energy is

specifically for combating undead. I know of no other characteristics of

it.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Birthright-L]

question. What is positive energy if its not the

> opposite energy of undeath? It would seem to me that positive energy is

> specifically for combating undead. I know of no other characteristics of

> it.



I was waiting for someone to give a straight rules-answer, yes or no, but no

one has for some reason. So I will, if no one minds. To my understanding,

this was a simple question on how the 3e rules work. I`ll try to be as

detailed and clear as I can in my answer.



Yes, every attack by a corpereal source has a 50% chance of being negated

against a Shadow. Ariadne says that he converted a cure spell. Just so

we`re clear: a cure spell doesn`t have to be converted to anything. You can

convert other spells to cure spells at will if you are a good or neutral

cleric.



The cure spell works by using positive energy on a target. In most cases

this heals hitpoints, but in the case of undead, it will actually cause

damage instead. This is the standard effect of the cure spell and it works

by "inflicting" positive energy.



From the SRD description of INCORPOREALITY:

"Incorporeal creatures can only be harmed by other incorporeal creatures, by

+1 or better weapons, or by spells, spell-like effects, or supernatural

effects. They are immune to all nonmagical attack forms. They are not burned

by normal fires, affected by natural cold, or harmed by mundane acids."



From the SRD description of the SHADOW monster:

"Incorporeal: Can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, +1 or

better magic weapons, or magic, with a 50% chance to ignore any damage from

a corporeal source. Can pass through solid objects at will, and own attacks

pass through armor. Always moves silently."



Thus, as you can see, more than simply `force effects` like Magic Missile

are capable of hurting the thing. Not only will your `cure spell` work

effectively against the monster, but all magic spells will. Only attacks

with mundane weapons or non-magical energy will suffer that 50% mischance,

hence the relatively low challenge rating.



As far as I know, Xeres is incorrect regarding that incorperal creatures can

only be hurt by silver weapons and that silver weapons are considered holy.

Both are false in D&D 3e rules. (I have not yet read v3.5)



And finally, because I quoted it above, I feel I should respond to Kenneth`s

post. Yes, positive energy is used to combat undead, but that doesn`t mean

that positive energy can automatically get past defensive abilities and such

"just because". The situation doesn`t apply with Incorpereal, but if the

undead had magic resistance, it would be protected from positive energy

attacks just as well as other magic spells. (Though I personally wouldn`t

mind a house rule or a feat saying otherwise.) And as for "knowing no other

characteristic," well... the positive energy did come from a "cure" spell.

That *is* the other characteristic of positive energy.



Hoped I helped a little.



-Lord Rahvin

[Birthright-L]

ee, more than simply `force effects` like Magic Missile

> are capable of hurting the thing. Not only will your `cure spell` work

> effectively against the monster, but all magic spells will. Only attacks

> with mundane weapons or non-magical energy will suffer that 50% mischance,

> hence the relatively low challenge rating.





My answer was incomplete here. I apologize.

I forgot to address one important issue: "Cure" spells are touch spells.

I`m not sure whether you can use a "touch spell" against an incorperal

target. I believe the answer was yes, you can, but I will find you an exact

rules quote later. I`m tired; it`s 3am. The lines on my screen are all

blurry.



For the sake of thoroughness I also want to remind you that the Shadow gets

a Will save for half damage once you hit him with the "cure" spell.



-Lord Rahvin

[Azrai]

Only the DMG will give the answer.

Take a look under "Incorpereality". There it is clearly stated, that ANY corporeal source - magic and physical - has a 50% miss chance.

Exeptions are "force" effects like mage armor, bracers, magic missile. (DMG p. 78)

Turning Undead is a "Channeling" Ability (Defenders of Faith p 16), where positive energy is used.

As a result the "Cure Spell" has a 50% miss chance since it is only a spell (which uses positive energy).

[Birthright-L]

someone to give a straight rules-answer, yes or no, but

> no

> one has for some reason. So I will, if no one minds. To my

> understanding,

> this was a simple question on how the 3e rules work. I`ll try to be as

> detailed and clear as I can in my answer.



Ackk.

I got this all wrong. That`s what I get for posting too hastily... and

without any sleep or caffeine.



I`m truly sorry about my previous posts on this subject: they`re all wrong.



Revised analysis is as follows:



* Yes, the Shadow would get a 50% chance of being immune to your "cure"

spell.

* Yes, Kenneth is probably right in that it would make a lot more sense for

them to be vulnerable to Positive Energy instead of Force spells. Since

when is 3e about making sense?

* Yes, touch spells can hurt incorpereal targets and don`t necessarily

involve "touching" the opponent at all.

* No, silver weapons still aren`t holy nor can they bypass

incorperalability. I don`t know where that came from.



Truly, very sorry.

So embarrassing.



-Lord Rahvin

[destowe]

Just to muck the water a little.

If the character missed the creature do to the 50%, or just missed the roll, it is not wasted.

The character can hold the spell and try again next time, as long as you do not cast another spell. They only discharge on use, not attempt.