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  1. #1
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    I was wondering, where the "semi-spellcaster" classes (paladins, ranger, bards) allowed to use battle magic in AD&D 2nd ed.?

  2. #2
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    No.

    No battle spells, no realm magic.

    Short and sweet :P

  3. #3
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 09:57 PM 6/6/2003 +0200, Aba wrote:

    > I was wondering, where the "semi-spellcaster" classes (paladins,
    > ranger, bards) allowed to use battle magic in AD&D 2nd ed.?

    No, and no realm spells either. I never really understood the logic of
    that, personally, but so said the campaign material.

    Gary

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  4. #4
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    Could any of you give a reference where battle spells are specifically forbidden to any of the semi-spellcaster classe?

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    On Sat, 7 Jun 2003, Aba wrote:
    > Could any of you give a reference where battle spells are specifically
    > forbidden to any of the semi-spellcaster classe?

    Realm spells are detailed in the Book of Magecraft and Book of
    Priestcraft, and they are described as being available to wizards,
    magicians, and priests (which included druids in 2nd edition). It`s not
    specifically forbidden, because these other classes weren`t in the same
    league at all in 2nd edition, and it was never even a question. This
    would probably allow a devious rules-lawyer type munchkin to argue that
    they should be castable by `semi-spellcasters`, but that kind of person
    should be hit with a stick and then ignored.

    By the way, the section describing battle spells is all of 4.5 pages in
    the BoP, and even shorter in the Magecraft version, so it`s fairly easy to
    peruse yourself.
    --
    Daniel McSorley

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  6. #6
    Birthright Developer Raesene Andu's Avatar
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    It is mostly by the lack of any mention of realm spell casting Bard, Paladins and Ranger that this can be deduced, the original rules don't specifically state that they can't but every mention of realm spells talks about wizards and priests and never mentions that other classes. The Book of Magecraft also states that only wizards can cast realm spells (in the fundamentals of magic section).

    Also in the character class chapter it states that Bard don't gain any special benefits from holdings (where the wizard class talks about realm spells).

    Also in the domains chapter (pg. 35 of rulebook) it states that while sources can be controlled by character other than wizards, only wizards can cast realm spells. It states something similar for temple holdings and priests.

    Battle spells are a little more debatable, as the Book of Magecraft talks about wizards and magicians when it talks about these spells. No mentions of battle spells for bards, rangers, or paladins is ever made though.
    Let me claim your Birthright!!

  7. #7
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 01:11 AM 6/7/2003 +0200, Aba wrote:

    > Could any of you give a reference where battle spells are specifically
    > forbidden to any of the semi-spellcaster classe?

    If you`re looking for a statement specifically forbidding battlespells to
    other classes it`s probably not in any of the published materials. Usually
    things are stated only in positive terms, so you`ll not find a statement
    like, "bards, paladins and rangers are not allowed to cast
    battlespells." You will, however, find positive statements that include
    character classes. BoP 96 "...this chapter describes battle spells, a type
    of magic that enables priests to draw from a repertoire of spells that will
    enhance their role to make them a vital part of any military
    campaign." Similar text is found in the BoM p96 with almost identical
    wording, but with "wizards and magicians" in place of "priests." I suppose
    if BR texts for bards, rangers and paladins came about the concept might
    have been extended to those classes, but somehow I doubt it.

    Gary

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  8. #8
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    Daniel McSorley wrote:

    >On Sat, 7 Jun 2003, Aba wrote:
    >
    >> Could any of you give a reference where battle spells are specifically
    >>forbidden to any of the semi-spellcaster classe?
    >>
    Nowhere :-)
    One might assume from the speech of the Paladin Burrein Wescot on p. 96
    of the Book of Priestcraft, that Paladins might possibly be able to cast
    battlespells as well as priests, druids, wizards and Magicians.

    However semi-spellcasters would certainly not be able to cast Battle
    spells before they can cast the conventional spell that resembles the
    battle spell, so a low-level Paladin, Ranger or Bard casting a battle
    spell is imposible.

    Someone from the list suggested that Bards, instead of casting Battle
    spells should rather be able to use their "Bardic Music" on the
    battlefield which would IMO better fit.
    bye
    Michael Romes

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  9. #9
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    Ok, first of all, I am his DM and that question and the thread are to convinve me that he's right :P

    Secondly the issue is not about realm spells cos I am of the same opinion as any of you that realm spells cannot be used by anyone short of a priest and a mage.

    Now, let's talk about battlespells.

    First of all, my understanding is that there are two kinds of battlemagic. Conventional spells with battle use (eg Fireball) and researched battle spells having a greater effect than the conventional (eg Charm Person => Charm Unit)

    The difference between the two categories is that in the battle cards there are spells listed as being battle spells, like the aforementioned Fireball or the Walls etc yet only in the BoM and BoP are the newly researched spells, the expanded conventionals if you wish, mentioned.

    So, let's say that we have a bard who is of sufficient level to cast the quite easy spell called Wall of Fog. Since the spell can be cast in battle, would you say that he wouldn't be allowed to cast it in battle? The cards do not specify that a mage-cast Wall of Fog is to be treated any differently than a bard-cast wall of fog. (oh, something I forgot, I am having 2nd ed in mind throughtout this text)

    So let's say we have a 16th level bard who can cast quite many illusions divinations AND enchantments. Would you say that he cannot cast in a battle the spells: Massmorph, hallucinatory terrain or a programmed illusion?

    I hope that so far I've managed to convince people that bards can cast battle magic, since some of the spells used in battle are the conventional spells and nothing more.

    So how about him researching an actual battle spell? Is there something prohibiting him from doing so? Since he can research a normal spell for his own perusal, why should he not be allowed to research based on his Charm Person spell the Charm Unit spell.

    I personally see no reason why he should not be allowed. I do not find it at all imbalancing, mainly because bards and magicians are pretty weak classes in Birthright. As for rangers and paladins, they get spells too late in their advancement, so a 13th level paladin casting a Hammer Storm spell is not something imbalancing... especially since the oponent will usually have his own spellcaster too...

    To answer an argument that had been raised regarding the mentioning of only the wizard and the magician in BOM, I would like to point that the author only mentions those two when he talks about conventional spells in battleground use, but it would be IMHO silly to tell a bard that he cannot cast the wall of fog on the battleground because BOM does not specifically mention it.

    So my conclusion is that the fact that the semi-spellcaster classes were not mentioned specifically is (yet another) omission from the BR designers and not an intention they had. I am willing to listen to arguments why they shouldn't cast spells, but arguments, not just personal opinions, cos everyone is of course entitled to his own opinion :) but that wouldn't make me change my mind :)

  10. #10
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    Personally, I could see war-drums, pipes, etc, having an effect on the
    battlefield. The semi-spellcasting classes should have battlefield
    benefits, as well.

    -Scott

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