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  1. #11
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Originally posted by ConjurerDragon

    > Ariadne wrote:
    > I don`t cry about removing the tainted bloodline. Most rolled anew, if they got one...
    >
    Is there a sense in rolling at all, if you do not keep what you roll? Then better use the point-buy variant if you cheat yourself in rolling until you get something you want.
    No, I don't prefer a point-buy-system, because you get too much disadvantages, if you freely choose the abilities (and your other abilities might be too low without rolling) ;)

    I prefer a moderate to low magic (but not abilities) campaign...


    @Mark_Aurel: No, the bloodline system isn't terrible! It's a little bit on young feet, but the general idea is cool...
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  2. #12
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    On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Gavin Cetaine wrote:
    > Actually, I have to disagree about the format conversion. The d20
    > system is all about one rule -- roll the d20 and remember that higher
    > is better. By adapting the old bloodline system into a stat, Doom
    > brought it into line with that rule. Yes, the old system could have
    > been kept, but then you run into conformity issues.

    A good point.

    > You obviously have access to the old system, so you have the choice to
    > use that instead of the new one. But remember that BR has been off
    > the market for years and that some of us late comers (and all those
    > potential players out there) don`t necessarily have the old stuff.
    > Since a system had to be provided for us in the conversion, shouldn`t
    > that system be based on the same concepts of the d20 system?

    That`s an interesting argument, but that`s not what they did. It kept the
    Doom-3e conversion trait of shoehorning bloodline into a 3d6 stat, but
    then tried to keep the traits of the old system. So you end up with wierd
    artifacts and pointless modifiers to try to keep the feel of the old
    system. Stuff like `regents can collect 2x their bloodline in RP every
    turn` and `regents can only accumulate 5x their bloodline in RP` and my
    personal favorite, `to raise your bloodline score, spend 4x your current
    score in RP.` That one doesn`t even resemble the original second edition
    rule, which was RP = current score +1, it just seems like a random
    multiplier pulled out of a hat.

    If you`re going to make bloodline a stat, say simply this:
    Old bloodlines convert into new bloodlines by dividing by 2.
    Max RP collection in a turn = your bloodline (and by domain power,
    obviously).
    To raise your bloodline, spend RP = current score +1.
    There shouldn`t be a max accumulation of RP by default, that should be a
    variant.

    Simpler, and truer to the original system.
    --
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    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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  3. #13
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    On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Mark_Aurel wrote:
    > -Mechanical compatibility; the ability mechanic in 3e is used for
    > several things in 3e - setting DCs is a pretty important thing. If
    > bloodline wasn`t there, this`d default to charisma. Why should bards
    > and paladins have better bloodline abilities than members of other
    > classes?

    Because charisma represents force of personality, which is a pretty good
    map to force of divine will.

    > -Use blood abilities as feats or templates, perhaps with salient
    > divine abilities in mind. Doesn`t work either - doesn`t interface
    > with the domain rules properly.

    I don`t see why not. If you have a bloodline score, you can have a
    domain. Keep the blood abilities separate from the domain rules. Blood
    abilities could then be feats, with prereqs like `bloodline of 25+`.


    > -Keep the bloodline system interactive with domains;

    But do blood abilities have to be? They pretty much weren`t in the old
    system. I admit I`m coming around to the ability score version of
    bloodlines, it does seem elegant.

    I`d say nix the multiple bloodline templates. Your strength is based on
    your score- if you have a 1-10, tainted. 11-20, minor. 21-30, major.
    31-40, great, and 41+, true. Multiplied by two, those map pretty well to
    the old values. So you get an ECL based on your bloodline score. Ah,
    damn, that`s going to mess up XP if your bloodline drops a category during
    play. Hmm.
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  4. #14
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    I don`t see why not. If you have a bloodline score, you can have a
    domain. Keep the blood abilities separate from the domain rules. Blood
    abilities could then be feats, with prereqs like `bloodline of 25+`.
    My earlier statement was in error a bit; I meant feat-like, something a character would gain in addition to regular feats; I've looked at the "blood abilities as feats" variant in the past as well; the problem it presents isn't one of balance, but "realism" - I don't see a compelling reason to make blooded fighters less skilled than unblooded fighters, for instance, and it would also favor members of the fighter class to an extent. Not quite sure if you meant one or the other, though.

    I`d say nix the multiple bloodline templates. Your strength is based on
    your score- if you have a 1-10, tainted. 11-20, minor. 21-30, major.
    31-40, great, and 41+, true. Multiplied by two, those map pretty well to
    the old values. So you get an ECL based on your bloodline score. Ah,
    damn, that`s going to mess up XP if your bloodline drops a category during
    play. Hmm.
    That's another angle to examine it from, and also a good one - the problem it presents is that starting characters would be severely limited in the blood ability value they could begin with; i.e. 18 would be the most. However, it'd avoid little quirks such as a character taking an ECL, getting a BLD of 4, and ending up with a bloodline score of 8 - essentially an ECL with nothing to show for, even though it was by choice. It'd be a rather strange choice, of course, but it is possible. Hmmm.
    Jan E. Juvstad.

  5. #15
    Administrator Green Knight's Avatar
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    While not a bad idea, I just don`t see the point of introducing the 7th
    ability score. It seems very out of place to me; it did so with v3.08,
    and it still does.

    Why does it seem odd? Because it changes something that didn`t need
    changing, into something that is very similar (its still a linear power
    scale of sorts), but not very true to the original BR material (which
    was 1 bloodline strength = 1RP collected, very neat). I`m not saying
    that the bloodline rules didn`t need a workover, but I don`t think this
    new way of measuing them is at at neat.

    I still use a system similar to the old one, but with a thorough update.
    I`m not going to push that one on anyone (it is available at Ruins of
    Empire if anyone is interested), but here are some key issues.

    1. Assigning ECL to each bloodline strength. Tainted +0, minor +1, major
    +2 etc.
    2. After that it is "merely" a matter of balancing the number and power
    of the blood abilities you get to conform to the ECL modifier in
    question.
    2a. Make up a table that make sure people get about the "right" number
    of abilities.
    2b. Make all abilities within one magntitude catagory about equal in
    power and balance the magntitude categories with each other.
    3. Make some sort of mechanic for interfacing blood abilities with the
    core system. For example: blood abilities are spell-like abiliites
    unless otherwise noted, minor abilities are the eqivalent of 2nd level
    spells, add the "bloodline modifier" (either equal to the Ecl or some
    other mechanic) to the save DC against abilities.
    4. Finished! You have a system similar to the old one, but balanced in
    power by the relatively useful ECL mechanic.

    But hey, this isn`t very unlike what we got! Right you are; but it
    measures bloodline strength along the same lines as the orininal system
    (including retaining 1BS = 1 RP), retains the tainted line (a favourite
    of mine), and just plain corrects the imbalances of the old system.

    In short: Why change something good into something which is remarkably
    similar, but isn`t in line with the original material?

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  6. #16
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 03:42 PM 2/7/2003 +0100, you wrote:

    >This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread
    > at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1266
    >
    > Mark_Aurel wrote:
    > Okay, the current bloodline system is terrible. Just like democracy.
    > Just like Churchill said. It`s terrible, but there isn`t really any
    > evils around that are lesser.

    An off-topic anecdote. A few years ago I toured Blenheim palace
    (Churchill`s family`s ancestral home--nice place too... if you like
    opulence) with a couple of friends of mine, one of whom was an history
    professor, the other an English literature professor. There was a big
    exhibit dedicated to the life of Winston Churchill describing him in
    glowing terms, and the English professor asked "What`s the big deal with
    this Churchill guy anyway? He was just the prime minister, right?"

    Shocked the History professor said, "What? He`s possibly the most
    important person of the 20th century!"

    The English professor was unimpressed. "No, no. The most important person
    of the 20th century was James Joyce."

    A lesson in emphasis defining outlook, I suppose.

    >I`m going to go through the reasons, in brief:
    >
    >-Mechanical compatibility; the ability mechanic in 3e is used for several
    >things in 3e - setting DCs is a pretty important thing. If bloodline
    >wasn`t there, this`d default to charisma. Why should bards and paladins
    >have better bloodline abilities than members of other classes? The other
    >alternative would be flat DCs, which doesn`t really exist in 3e.

    You could still use wisdom, intelligence or charisma just like spell
    effects and note which ability score is used in the description of the
    blood ability where necessary. There`s another way of doing this that I`ll
    just have to be cryptic about for a while, I`m afraid....

    >-Balance. 3e balances characters, level by level. 2e "balanced" things
    >by using a system where you`d get random abilities, and "balance" the
    >powerful ones by making them rare. That wouldn`t really work in 3e.

    Balance is a tightrope. In this case, though, I don`t think it`s
    particularly well served by making bloodline an ability score. Offhand,
    I`d say that because one can buy bloodline for the same cost as other
    ability scores given the suggested 32-point method that creates something
    of an imbalance issue to begin with. What I`m afraid I`ll find is weird,
    min/maxed characters. When my group meets this weekend my plan is for
    everyone to generate several characters and throw them into a quicky domain
    level scenario to playtest this stuff, so we`ll see.

    >-Character design decisions. 3e gives you much more control over character
    >design than 2e did - when there were subsystems for new abilities in 2e,
    >such as blood abilities, red steel abilities, wild talents, or whatever,
    >they were random and "balanced" by randomness. Class abilities were
    >rarely customizable to the extent they are in 3e (particularly through
    >feats); 3e is still a class-based system, of course, but it keeps
    >simplicity while allowing a greater level of choice.

    That`s true, but it really goes more to whether or not you should be able
    to choose your derivation, blood abilities and bloodline strength (with
    appropriate balance issues factored in) rather than whether or not
    bloodline should be reflected as an ability score, doesn`t it?

    When it gets right down to it, I don`t know if reflecting bloodline as an
    ability score is all that much more of a balanced or substantially more
    "3e" way of doing it. In the spirit of making a suggestion for improving
    that method rather than simply critiquing... I have a whole different
    method of reflecting bloodline that, I think, is both "more 3e," more
    easily balanced, and fits into the domain system a little better. BUT...
    it`s part of a larger document, and part of my whole system of changes to
    the domain level of play that I`ve been working on for as long as I can
    remember--a process I assure you makes my sympathize with the amount of
    work that the BR 3e design team has put into this document. It includes a
    method of determining blood abilities that are broader than those in the
    original materials based on points rather than the more simple X ability
    for Y score in the original rules. I`ll see about getting it into some
    sort of shape that would make sense outside of my little gaming group.

    Gary

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  7. #17
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    Originally posted by Mark_Aurel
    My earlier statement was in error a bit; I meant feat-like, something a character would gain in addition to regular feats; I've looked at the "blood abilities as feats" variant in the past as well; the problem it presents isn't one of balance, but "realism" - I don't see a compelling reason to make blooded fighters less skilled than unblooded fighters, for instance, and it would also favor members of the fighter class to an extent. Not quite sure if you meant one or the other, though.
    Blooded fighters could be less skilled than unblooded fighters because they spent energy and training time learning to use their bloodline abilities.

    It wouldn't favor members of the fighter class, everyone gets the same progression of general feats, at 1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th, etc levels. The fighter class feats can only be spent on fighter feats, not general ones.

  8. #18
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    DanMcSorley wrote:

    >This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1266
    >DanMcSorley wrote:
    >
    Originally posted by Mark_Aurel
    >My earlier statement was in error a bit; I meant feat-like, something a character would gain in addition to regular feats; I`ve looked at the "blood abilities as feats" variant in the past as well; the problem it presents isn`t one of balance, but "realism" - I don`t see a compelling reason to make blooded fighters less skilled than unblooded fighters, for instance, and it would also favor members of the fighter class to an extent. Not quite sure if you meant one or the other, though.
    >Blooded fighters could be less skilled than unblooded fighters because they spent energy and training time learning to use their bloodline abilities.
    >It wouldn`t favor members of the fighter class, everyone gets the same progression of general feats, at 1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th, etc levels. The fighter class feats can only be spent on fighter feats, not general ones.
    >
    I also see no reason, and would not like to see it that a blooded
    fighter is less skilled than an unblooded fighter - having lower ability
    scores due to the unblooded able to use his highest rolls for ability
    rather than bloodline, o.k., but less skilled due to spending feats for
    bloodlines? No.

    I like the novels from Birthright, even with the many flaws in them
    (mentioned Vos in Rjurik region in one novel) but the development of
    bloodabilities of Michael Roele for example was not trained or spent
    time on, but developed without him taking any special effort simply over
    time (Courage from early on, later Divine Wrath, Iron Will...).

    As Aebrynnis is a secluded world and does not interact with other worlds
    unless under the most exceptional circumstances, there is no reason to
    have bloodabilitys in addition to the normal feats instad of requiring
    spending normal feats to gain bloodabilities.
    bye
    Michael Romes

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  9. #19
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    I for one agree with the "bloodline as an ability" approach. If you get more
    rolls/more points to spend on abilities, you can chhose if you want to place
    a high roll/many points into bloodlines.

    What I dont like is the variable ECL modifier. If you get more points to
    psend, then I find it very unfair that those who choose to spend their
    points on bloodline get both lower attributes in general and a lower level.
    You pay for the ability twice. The same goes for those whoroll
    sevenattributes and then put a good one into bloodline.

    If the bloodline abilities are so strong as to make thie absolutely
    necesarry, perhaps they should be toned down or made more level-dependent.



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  10. #20
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    On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Michael Romes wrote:
    > As Aebrynnis is a secluded world and does not interact with other worlds
    > unless under the most exceptional circumstances, there is no reason to
    > have bloodabilitys in addition to the normal feats instad of requiring
    > spending normal feats to gain bloodabilities.

    That`s an awful line of reasoning. A better reason not to do them as
    feats is that there is already an ECL for having a bloodline. Probably
    either would work, but not both together.
    --
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