Playing a Guilder PC.

[Sorontar]

So I have been looking around for how else traders/merchants have been characterised as classes and what unique features they have been given. Here are some of my discoveries.

NPC Expert Sidekick class
(DnD 5e 2014 - TCE)

This is an existing skill-based class. It starts with proficiency of 5 skills, 2 tools, Simple weapons and Light armour at L1. It might be a good alternative starting point for the Guilder other than the Rogue. It has various features at different levels related to helping others or its own proficiencies, like Expertise and Reliable Talent, as well Rogue features that allow it to get out of trouble, like Evasion. Some of the helping features include being able to add to the damage of those they are assisting. None relate to their own combat.

The Merchant Class
(DnD 5e 2014 - DMs Guild, https://www.dmsguild.com/product/251...Merchant-Class )

This is a Spellcaster-lite class. The core to it is a Merchant's Portable Storefront, which I understand to be a magical storage device like a bag of holding that allows daily access to a fixed inventory of items. The amount of items is defined by a maximum GP value, with some exceptional (read magical) items available on a separate shelf. The items could be flasks like oil, acid or holy water; weapons; general items like rope or ink. It is a really interesting idea, but the reliance on it being a magical item and the Merchant being a caster is not really appropriate to the Guilder. It might be adaptable to the Guilder having to have a link to something in the Shadow World where items are stored but I am not really sure how they could be restocked in a way suitable to Birthright. I don't think the class has anything special for combat as it is described more as a support class, though it does have a few spells.

Dark Sun Dune Trader class
(AD&D 2e - Dark Sun https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Trader)
(DnD 5e 2014 - DM Dave https://dmdave.com/dark-sun-trader-class-5e/

This was originally released for AD&D 2e but attempts have been made to convert it to 5e. It was designed as a specialist Rogue class, like Thieves, Bards, Ninjas and Assassins. Every level, a 2e Trader gets 20 percentage points to allocate to its rogue abilities (max per skill 10% a level; 80% total). They also get new languages every 3 levels and a Fast-Talk Charisma check (with Int or Wis bonus). At level 10, they can get Agent followers (cf. TABLE_XXII:_TRADER'S_FOLLOWERS). The 5e Trader is not a conversion or adaption of the 2e Trader - it is a class designed in a similar style, with a focus on being a "skill-based monkey" without being a bard or rogue. It is more similar to the Expert sidekick, with a focus on verbal abilities. It has three subclasses (Diplomat, Menance, Silver-Tongue), each with different ways of getting your way, including using an Agent follower. It also has its own set of Trader Knacks which are a set of special features that a player can choose from every couple of levels depending on what skills they are proficient in. For instance, Combat Medic and Medicine proficiency gives "advantage on Wisdom (Medicine) checks to stabilize a dying creature", but Circumspect and proficiency in Survival and Perception means that "While traveling at a normal pace in the wilderness, you can actively notice threats and perform one of the following activities at the same time: navigate, track, or forage". This class certainly is quite relevant to the Guilder. Some Knacks and features would also help in combat (or help prevent/minimise combat).

CnC Guilder class
(Castles & Crusades - Fizz, http://www.birthright.net/forums/dow...do=file&id=226)

As Fizz has pointed out already, this Guilder class has a feature that allows specialisation bonus when a scenario relates to certain industries. It says "When making attribute checks involving their specialty, the guilder gains a +1 bonus. This bonus increases a further +1 every 4 levels after (5th, 9th, etc)." I am putting this here since it is a good idea. Another feature is the ability to take on some non-magical and non-supernatural features from other classes. This might be hard to convert to 5e, but it is an interesting idea. I am not sure whether it can be made to include Fighting Styles and Extra Attacks and how it can be made to be made level-specific. It might be able to be provided as part of the Ability Score Improvement, instead of a feat.

Any thoughts on adapting any of these for an alternate 5e Guilder? Can you see any of them helping in combat?

Sorontar

[Sorontar]

So to summarise some of what the previous post suggested:

• NPC expert sidekick class and related skill-monkey features
• # magical supply box
• # have NPC Agents as bodyguards/enforcers, etc.
• have Guilder features about collaborating or assisting allies, including in combat
• # choose Knacks based on the Guilder's proficiencies
• # specialisation bonus for attribute checks
• # be able to chose class features from other classes

# = the capability/quantity builds over multiple levels

Time for me to elaborate on some of my additional ideas about what a non-magical, combat-light Guilder class might also have as class features that might help it 1) contribute to combat and encounters 2) relate more to characteristics of the Guilder, like prowess related to wealth, value and resource management.

Evaluating worth
Premise: A Guilder should be good at recognising the worth or value of items, people and circumstances. This is not always the financial value. They also should be able to work out what items, people or circumstances stand out from the others. This knowledge can provide a tactical advantage in an encounter, even in combat.
Example features/capabilities:
• detecting non-magical/ordinary items
• detecting treasure
◦ e.g., most expensive, best quality, best worth
◦ e.g., least of any of the above, detecting a fraud/con, finding traps
◦ e.g., locating an object
• evaluating people
◦ e.g., reading emotions/insight
◦ e.g., detecting lies and truths, including in mannerisms, actions and clothing
◦ e.g., detecting strengths/weaknesses
Possible progression between levels:
• number of uses
• number of targets of interest
• selecting new range of ways to be evaluated
• DC of evaluation decreases/ability increases

Stunt box
Premise: The public image of a Guilder relates to wealth, regardless of whether this true or not. The greed of others can make the Guilder a target. A Guilder should take advantage of this greed by providing others access to a "treasure box" that can be set with a variety of triggers and traps that the Guilder can use to injure, confuse, distract or dissuade their enemy.
Example features/capabilities:
• trapped to explode (fire/electricity/thunder/force damage, deafness/blindness)
• trapped with gas (poison/blindness/hallucination/sleep)
• trapped with weapon (spiked/poison/slice/budgeoning)
• contains what looks like wealth (distract for one round/AoO/emburden)
alternate: toss coins into a 5 foot area
Possible progression between levels:
• success depends on a Wisdom roll by the enemy, affects any enemy within 5 feet of the stunt box
• GP level of the stunt box presented can increase per proficiency bonus, so how attractive it is to higher level creatures increases. For this reason, there is a need to compare GP to the CR level of the opponent to help determine whether DC would increase or decrease.
• At higher levels, the Guilder may be allowed to "stunt" any item by hacking it, but we don't want to make the Guilder into an artificer-light.

Defensive management
Premise: The Guilder is not a fighter, preferring to control the environment, rather than fight it. They are also known for using any resources that may be available in novel ways. Their contacts and travels provide access to markets that provide strange weapons. This has all resulted in a different behaviour in combat to many other classes.
Example features/capabilities:
• defensive fighting actions
◦ e.g., defensive manoeuvres against attacks like parrying, feint, voiding
◦ e.g., defensive movements like pass-by, get behind, side-step
• passive offensive actions
◦ e.g., disarm/disable
◦ e.g., counterattack
◦ e.g., blind/grapple/prone opponent with cloak
◦ e.g., trap/grapple an opponent's weapon with weapon/main-gauche/cloak
• have access and proficiency in the use of one exotic weapon
• use irregular items as weapons to good effect (proficiency to one item or category or all)
◦ clothing, e.g., cane, hat, cloak, belt?
◦ household items, e.g., mug/tankard, rolling pin, frying pan, cooking mallet
Possible progression between levels:
• Offer new defensive actions, like a fighter gets access to fighting styles
• Increase the capability as per normal combat

Again, these are just ideas that might work in isolation or with other ideas. I am very interested in what you all think would work from the perspective of D&D 5e and what you think is appropriate for a Guilder in an adventuring party. You are welcome to suggest any changes/additions.

Sorontar

[Fizz]

Sorry for my late reply. I got busy with things... and then whenever i tried to connect the server was down... then i was away... and suddenly months had passed. Blah.

Regarding Sorontar's list... my thoughts:

Evaluating Worth:
For objects, it seems like Appraisal does this already, so how would this be different from that skill?
For people, i think that could work In C&C the assassin has the ability of Case Target, which enables the assassin to estimate the level / hit dice (or other important details) of the subject by observing them for a time. I hadn't thought of this for the guilder before since it's often focused on finding tactical information before a kill attempt. But this could potentially be their combat advantage- understanding the enemy.

Stunt Box:
I don't like this one. It seems borderline magical to me. Plus i think the premise is also incorrect. HotGB describes guilders as being representative of the middle class, not the wealthy (that's the nobility). Besides, all adventurers are after treasure, so i don't think the guilder would be any more succeptable to this public persona than any other class.

Defensive Management:
I don't object to the guilder having some combat options, but i don't think it should be anything that a fighter doesn't have. I mean, why could a guilder control the environment more than a fighter or other warrior-type class? They should have just a few more combat options than rogues. I think combat styles would be a good way to do this.
As an aside, how would Black Strike fit into 5e? As most guilders are from Brechtur, this would be a natural style for them, but i am unsure offhand if 5e has something similar already.


After reading the other various related versions and classes, i think there are some good ideas there.

Polyglot (from 5e dune trader link above):
I included Decipher in my version to reflect the Read Languages skill of the original 2nd ed guilder. But the Polyglot could work too, if that's more in the spirit of 5e mechanics. And if one can do this vocally, i see no reason why it couldn't apply to written word as well, so it's connected in spirit to the original.

Diplomat archetype from (5e dune trader):
I like this idea as an archetype, but i don't get the AC bonus or extra attack- what do those have to do with being a diplomat?

Guild Specialty (from my C&C version):
I am actually suprised i didn't include this in my 5e version. I like it because it makes the guilder better at skills (as they should be) but doesn't apply to any specific skill. It puts the "guild" in "guilder". Heh. That said, Expertise does something similar, though it applies to specific skills. So perhaps Expertise should be replaced with Guild Specialty.

I am going to start thinking about how to tweak my own version with some of these ideas... nothing radical, just some tweaks to fix some aspects with which i was never fully satisfied.


-Fizz

[Fizz]

Going back to defining what a Guilder is, i re-discovered this bit at the end of Part I of HotGB:

The guilder is a rogue sub-sclass that combines talents of a warrior, scout, rogue, and merchant. He uses his skills for adventuring, but turns a profit by exploring new markets for goods, discovering new resources for exploitation, and gathering information and raw materials on his way.


-Fizz

[Sorontar]

Going back to defining what a Guilder is, i re-discovered this bit at the end of Part I of HotGB:

The guilder is a rogue sub-sclass that combines talents of a warrior, scout, rogue, and merchant. He uses his skills for adventuring, but turns a profit by exploring new markets for goods, discovering new resources for exploitation, and gathering information and raw materials on his way.

That is the vagueness that is the problem:

• What skills do they use for adventuring?
• What part of warrior and rogue do they have?
• What is a scout in this sense (Birthright has military units as scouts, but they are more like rangers)?
• What is a merchant?

The comments about resources, materials, markets/environments and gathering information is what I have been trying to transform into something that is strategically helpful in combat. I see the guilder as someone who understands their opponent better than most classes and can adapt the circumstances to their advantage better than most classes. This isn't just about talking and persuasion - it could be about the terrain, weapon efficiency or suitability, enemy weaknesses, etc. This is the guilder as an efficient resource manager - getting the most out of the least. They don't have to be good at combat themself but they can help make sure everyone else is at their optimal level.

Sorontar

[Fizz]

That is the vagueness that is the problem:

• What skills do they use for adventuring?
• What part of warrior and rogue do they have?
• What is a scout in this sense (Birthright has military units as scouts, but they are more like rangers)?
• What is a merchant?

Yeah, i had missed that line when we started our thread and had been too focused on the class description itself.

Indeed, that is the crux. In 2nd ed terms, their skills are primarily nonweapon proficiencies. So there is a plethora of options that are useful for adventuring. Some might take tracking and survival, others might take navigation and sailing, others might have appraising and gambling. All are useful for adventuring in different ways.

They are part warrior in that they can use any weapon or armor (unlike thieves and bards). They are like a thief / bard in that they can read languages, and in hit points and combat progression.

I think 'scout' is meant in the exploratory sense... off to find if these new lands are rich in resources or trade opportunities. I don't think 'scout' is meant in a military tactical sense.

A 'merchant' is anyone who uses any / all of the above skills to make some money... maybe?

The comments about resources, materials, markets/environments and gathering information is what I have been trying to transform into something that is strategically helpful in combat.

I know it's 5e, but does everything have to be about combat? Do such benefits have be implemented in a combat-centric way?

I see the guilder as someone who understands their opponent better than most classes and can adapt the circumstances to their advantage better than most classes. This isn't just about talking and persuasion - it could be about the terrain, weapon efficiency or suitability, enemy weaknesses, etc. This is the guilder as an efficient resource manager - getting the most out of the least. They don't have to be good at combat themself but they can help make sure everyone else is at their optimal level.

Hrmmm... i agree and disagree in parts. I do like the idea of the guilder being able to read the enemy. They could provide info on the enemy's morale and motivations, etc. But i don't see them making tactical evaluations, such as the battlefield, weapons, logistics, etc. I mean, how does a guilder know more about weapon or battlefield choice than a fighter who's very trade is that? That part doesn't feel right to me. Now maybe a guilder chooses the right skills to learn some of that, but it's not a requirement.

For personal combat, I do like the idea of a combat style, giving them an edge over regular thieves (or rogues in 5e) and bards.

For my part, i have envisioned the guilder in a couple ways. One is the inventor-type, such as DaVinci, MacGyver, or maybe the gnome tinkers from Dragonlance. How they contribute is not always immediately obvious, but they always have a way of coming up with something useful. But another way of thinking of the guilder is the explorer type, such as Marco Polo or any of the great navigators from the age of sail, or a privateer such as Francis Drake.


-Fizz

[Sorontar]

Sorry, I have been busy with RL as well. It seems that we disagree on whether the Guilder needs a core combat-related feature, so I am thinking that perhaps I should try and work out a combat-focussed subclass/guilder path instead. So far we have

• Trader - Good at negotiation and finding value
• Delver - Good at finding and recognising secrets and treasures
• Explorer - Good at travelling and mapping
• Manager - Good at understanding and managing people and resources

My idea is to add a fifth one, based around a guilder being good at stand-over tactics, etc - the Enforcer (I am sure there might be a better term, but I can't think of it). They want to be able to look and sound threatening/intimidating/a challenge to any opposition when adventuring, as well as be able to do something about it. This requires business knowledge (knowing which weakness of the opposition to target), skills at persuasion and deception (coercion/calling their bluff), and good weapon proficiencies/feats/features (doing what "needs to be done"). They are not a fighter, but they should be better at fighting than the Trader subclass.

As a subclass, we have four subclass features to add at the 3rd, 9th, 13th, and 17th levels. I am thinking that we can try to adapt some from the rogue subclasses or make some new ones. However, you have previously said (when you announced this 5E class in http://www.birthright.net/forums/sho...ll=1#post92275 ) "I don't think the Rogue class captures the essence of the Guilder. Rogues are too focused on subterfuge and backstabs, and a guilder does not need to be like that."

At this stage, I am thinking something defensive (maybe about Disengage, ie., a tactical withdrawl/getting out of trouble, rather than being sneaky), something about advantage/disadvantage, something about attack or damage, something that helps/works with team members (it could be allowing someone-else to disengage or get advantage by distracting the opposition).

Fizz, do you have any suggestions? Or is that not a good theme for a Guilder subclass? If so, what would a guilder who is good at fighting mean to you? Anyone else is welcome to join the conversation.

Sorontar

[Fizz]

Sorry, I have been busy with RL as well.

No worries, i understand that all too well. Heh.

It seems that we disagree on whether the Guilder needs a core combat-related feature, so I am thinking that perhaps I should try and work out a combat-focussed subclass/guilder path instead.

Yeah, i don't see the guilder as being combat-centric by default. I much prefer the idea of making it a path. As Cerilia is a continent often at war, it seems reasonable that some guilders may apply their skills to battle either for personal or national interests, and in a context other than "arms dealer" (which would be covered by other paths). There is profit in conquest, perhaps?

And, as this is a 5e conversion, and all classes are more combat-centric ("balanced"... blah), it would make sense in that from a mechanics standpoint too, i suppose.

So far we have

• Trader - Good at negotiation and finding value
• Delver - Good at finding and recognising secrets and treasures
• Explorer - Good at travelling and mapping
• Manager - Good at understanding and managing people and resources

My idea is to add a fifth one, based around a guilder being good at stand-over tactics, etc - the Enforcer (I am sure there might be a better term, but I can't think of it).

"Enforcer" sounds like a thug from the thieves' guild. What about just "tactician"? Though perhaps we should sort out what he can do before deciding on the name.

They want to be able to look and sound threatening/intimidating/a challenge to any opposition when adventuring, as well as be able to do something about it. This requires business knowledge (knowing which weakness of the opposition to target), skills at persuasion and deception (coercion/calling their bluff), and good weapon proficiencies/feats/features (doing what "needs to be done"). They are not a fighter, but they should be better at fighting than the Trader subclass.

So you're envisioning recognizing weaknesses, that could work. And giving them a combat style would also work. I'm not sure yet for the other two path abilities... still thinking on those. (More below.)

I am thinking that we can try to adapt some from the rogue subclasses or make some new ones. However, you have previously said (when you announced this 5E class in http://www.birthright.net/forums/sho...ll=1#post92275 ) "I don't think the Rogue class captures the essence of the Guilder. Rogues are too focused on subterfuge and backstabs, and a guilder does not need to be like that."

I still stand by that. The focus of the guilder should not be stealth and subterfuge. That said, one or two abilities for a specific path might makes sense. I'm not sure what rogue abilities would apply for this new path, however. I'll have to read up on that.

At this stage, I am thinking something defensive (maybe about Disengage, ie., a tactical withdrawl/getting out of trouble, rather than being sneaky), something about advantage/disadvantage, something about attack or damage, something that helps/works with team members (it could be allowing someone-else to disengage or get advantage by distracting the opposition).

With regards to this, i'm not sufficiently familiar with 5e combat options. I'm good with the guilder-tactician having some extra combat bonuses, but i don't think it should be anything that a fighter could not do. So does the fighter or other warrior types have access to any of those sorts of benefits like you list here?

Fizz, do you have any suggestions? Or is that not a good theme for a Guilder subclass? If so, what would a guilder who is good at fighting mean to you? Anyone else is welcome to join the conversation.

My line of thinking for this path seems to be towards the military side of things, with a touch of individual combat bonus as a side-effect of that. So how does a guilder contribute to a military organization? Or, how does a guilder contribute to an adventuring party in a militaristic way (not hack'n'slash)?

Per earlier, i think we have the makings of two abilities.

1: Combat style. There are other classes that receive this, and it's a nice offensive boost that won't outshine true warriors.

2: Evaluate foes: In C&C, the assassin class has an ability called Case Target, which lets the character evaluate and learn the weaknesses of a would-be mark. For example, they can estimate the target's level / hit dice, condition, any hidden weapons, etc. This could be adapted to groups of enemies (evaluating the hoard of goblins before you).

But we'd still need a couple of ideas that help in combat which aren't necessarily just about doing damage. Perhaps i'm trying to be too clever; trying to think of something that is themeatic and not just another +x bonus. Heh.


-Fizz