Birthright and a game of thrones

[Sir Tiamat]

I've been following this for a bit now and well this probably is my first post on this site but here goes. I've been looking at doing this very same thing to make Birthright more viable to my current gaming group and from what i've seen you have all done an amazing job. I have a suggestion and criticism is applauded on this. I want to use the backstory of Birthright, the Nit n' Gritty rules of Agot and the magic system of the Midnight Campaign System. This may not seem good at first glance but if you also take the idea of making magic (divine and arcane) base classes (bard, druid, cleric, wiz/sor, etc) and taking them out as base classes then you can use the Midnight system to better effect.
The nice part about the Midnight system is it allows for more customization on classes. Take for example the character who wants to play a bard: He starts out as a rogue, takeing a couple of levels in that and taking the Spellcasting and Magecraft feats from the midnight setting. He chooses to have Evocation (lesser) from the list of schools in the spellcasting feat description. After a couple more choices by buying spellcasting multiple times he could pick up Enchantment, illusion and Abjuration (basically a bard, though I am probably missing a couple of schools!) His spellcasting is limited to his Con mod however, limiting his destructive capability unless he takes levels in channeler (the core spellcasting class). Even as a channeler you don't really have to worry about fireball spamming as using beyond the channeler pool will take the con of the channeler quickly down until he passes out.
Anyway thats just my thought, let me know what you think, obviously the spells will still have to be reduced in damage to work for AGOT, I am leaning towards the 1/2 damage rule thus far...

The Midnight magic system is fun but begins eroding at level 5, becoming a real problem around level 10 and totally breaks down at level 15…Mainly because a spellcasting class receives only one additional spell level (spellpoint) per level…

I would suggest increasing spellpoint allotment slightly at higher levels. Still far less spell levels than PHB mages but more in line with the costs of higher level spells;
-lvl 1-5: 1sp/lvl
-lvl 6-10: 2sp/lvl
-lvl 11-15: 3sp/lvl
-lvl 15-20: 4sp/lvl

[Arclight]

The Midnight magic system is fun but begins eroding at level 5, becoming a real problem around level 10 and totally breaks down at level 15…Mainly because a spellcasting class receives only one additional spell level (spellpoint) per level…

I would suggest increasing spellpoint allotment slightly at higher levels. Still far less spell levels than PHB mages but more in line with the costs of higher level spells;
-lvl 1-5: 1sp/lvl
-lvl 6-10: 2sp/lvl
-lvl 11-15: 3sp/lvl
-lvl 15-20: 4sp/lvl

I like the idea you've got here, it'll make high level spells really costly, which fits the AGoT system perfectly. I've also thought of using realm spells as high level spells, maybe even epic, I havent really decided yet. Any more feedback or ideas for this is most appreciated, I am really determined to blend Birthright and AGOT into a uniqe fantasy setting. Keep the coments and ideas pouring in!

[hirumatogeru]

I have some ideas on the magic/damage potential that I ran through during my conversion, which is still underway btw!

The main problems with d20 magical damage and AGoT can be broken down into 3 main categories.

1. Heroes in AGoT have very few hit points. To address this I would simply change spells that use multiple dice as damage to static numbers, much like how hit dice were changed into static hit points per level. So a fireball for instance would deal 1d6 plus 1 fire damage per level. Magic missile would deal 1d4+1 plus 1 damage per extra milssile against the same target, etc. etc.

2. Heroes in AGoT have a shock value. Due to magic's ability to deal large quantities of damage and the fact they ignore armor, this can be a problem. Using the solution in #1 above should address this, or as an added measure, characters may add their armor bonus to their saving throws against damaging spells.

3. Magic items in AGoT and Birthright will be extremely rare if available at all. Masterwork items also become exceedingly rare, usually reserved for royalty or noble heads of house. Hence, saving throws tend to be tougher and abilities like evasion no longer exist. This should also be fine using #1 and #2 as above, but needs to be playtested.

The midnight game is actually quite good and I looked into it for running my own campaign, but decided upon AGoT due to its gritty and realistic combat rules. Although I may borrow some of the midnight rules for creating magic items at power nexuses. It would promote questing and roleplaying and offer a cool tie in to source holdings as well.

[Bren]

Another very good example of a low HP d20 system is babylon 5 made by mongoose publishing.

The characters start with a die of hp (d4,d6 etc) + con bonus and each level they get either 1 or 2 hps (no con bonus).

The book technomages, a sourcebook for the setting is a good example of magic in such a low hp setting.

[Green Knight]

Well, I'm not sure I'm convinced that Midnight is the right system. It basically keeps the magic system from DnD, it only severely limits the number of spells that can be cast.

In fact, it limits the number of spells so severely that playing a spellcaster becomes incredibly boring; it is not that you are not powerful, because you are, but after a few spells your out of juice and that's about that.

This problem is (slightly) mitigated by since there are some classes and magic items that recude spellcasting costs; the way they are designed means they are very effective when applied to 1st and 2nd level spells; but not of that much use for high-lvl spells.

Moreover, combining AGoT with DnD spells (even when they are reduced in number) will be IMO unbalancing. Damage-dealing spells will potentially be devastating (which is perhaps OK). Halving damage will reduce this problem somewhat.

My main concern is still the non-damaging spells. Any spell that has an incapacitating effect on a failed save will be quite potent; sleep, charm etc.

So DnD spells Midnight style, applied within AGoT context , I fear will lead to exceedinly boring situations. In which the spell-casters do very little for most of the time, and then suddenly snap of a few devastating spells, before going back into coma . Similar perhaps to they way they play in vanilla, but I fear it will be even worse here.

Then again, that migth actually be what the designer is looking for; mages that are more of a threath becasue of what they CAN do, then for what they DO. Might be quite fitting for BR I suppose; but I'm not sure how fun it would be to play.

[Green Knight]

Hmm,

My previous post was more negative than I had intended. Here are some more constructive tips:

1. Sticking with DnD spells will probably save a lot of work instead of designing from top up.

2. I'd go through the spells in DnD and delete completely unappropriate ones, change the level of some etc., so that none are (completely) broken with regards to AGoT rules.

3. This will probably leave some holes, so some new spells might be called for.

4. Limitng access to the higher-level spell is proabbly a good idea; but not a good idea to simply make it a pain even to learn or cast veery low-level spells.

5. If spell-casters to be limited in spells; they need other skills. Mutlicalssing is one option; or reworking the classes to give less magic and more breadth.

Btw: My Midnight experience tells me that the feat/spell school estriction is fairly meaningless. It doesn't mean the players get less powerful spells; it only limits their spell choices. Once again I tend to find this constricting and unfun (that's not a real word is it?)

[Green Knight]

I have some ideas on the magic/damage potential that I ran through during my conversion, which is still underway btw!

The main problems with d20 magical damage and AGoT can be broken down into 3 main categories.

1. Heroes in AGoT have very few hit points. To address this I would simply change spells that use multiple dice as damage to static numbers, much like how hit dice were changed into static hit points per level. So a fireball for instance would deal 1d6 plus 1 fire damage per level. Magic missile would deal 1d4+1 plus 1 damage per extra milssile against the same target, etc. etc.

Here is a potential problem; while HEROES certainly have fewer hit points than they used to on higher levels...everyone will have MORE hit points at low levels, minor goons included.

[hirumatogeru]

True Sorcery is also worth checking out, its by Green Ronin and can be plugged into virtually any setting. It introduces a new magic mechanic where the spellcaster takes a basic spell, then applies modifications to it in order to cast it. There is a special DC that the caster must meet in order to the cast the spell, and if he fails, he must make another check next round with the first round's result as a bonus, and so on. It makes big spells like fireball possible, but most mages will be hard pressed to get one off in a single round.

Also, magic takes its toll on spellcasters via non-lethal damage, which they can reduce using spell points (kinda like mana). So even a big bad mage will still need to watch how many spells he casts, and after that fireball goes off, if he didn't kill his target, he's in big trouble.

[Gman]

My solution for mage spells vs armies is to consider any veteran troops at least 5th level Fighters. Probably choosen for Str and Con. 14 -16 in these stats. (above average -thats why they passed the selection)

D&D consistantly rates armies as Low level troops of 1-2 level fighters.

So you have spent the last 5-10 years at the service of Lord and Country - going through your arduous training from age 16 onwards - fighting several scirmishes with bandits, goblins, Gnolls, other Lords troops - fist fighting in the bars, getting into those illegal duels over the girls. Not to mention the failed invasion of Tournen and that encounter besieged in a border tower by Rhoubes Lieutenant. Hunting those wild boar to supplement your rations. Constantly pushed through drills and training etc etc.

And you, through all this have managed to get How many XP??? Big fat 0...

You get my point.

If your sick of having PC's blast armies then a few cleric or wizards can be counter spelling every thing they have.
And once the legend of the wizard with the fireballs spreads any general worth his pay will be working out some way to put him out of action - Particularly if they are considering invading the area he inhabits.
Pay those merc war wizards or assassins.

Elite troops level 10 - 12.
Class levels for everyone! Monster's too!

[Gman]

Or just don't let your PCs be more than Magicians.

Or let them be wizards and make them "WORK!" to find a new spell - What no magic shops????!!! You gained a level and you can't get any cool spells? No teachers consider you worthy??