Ruler levels

[geeman]

At 07:09 PM 2/2/2003 -0500, Daniel McSorley wrote:

>Less than 15 is CR 0.
>15-19 is CR 1
>20-24 CR 2
>25-29 CR 3
>30-34 CR 4
>35-39 CR 5
>40+ CR 6.
>
>So even the most difficult domain actions, if they`re done as DCs, should
>top out around CR 6. An opposed check (the Diplomacy or Contest actions
>maybe) would be CR based on the opponent.

I don`t think the CR equivalents for that table very accurately reflect the
actual challenge ratings very well. At least not in comparison to how CR
works in other aspects of the system and how the awards are normally
determined. That table would appear to be written without much actual
thinking as to what the numbers represent--part of the problem with much of
the D&D stuff that differs from previous editions, I`m afraid. 3e/D20
includes a skill system that in many ways the rest of the game mechanics
haven`t caught up with, and that table exemplifies the issue in several ways.

For example, if one wants to come up with a CR for skill checks then DC is
for all intents and purposes equivalent to AC in combat. The source of the
modifiers differ but they essentially come from similar level-based
increases that are little different from BAB, ability score modifiers,
feats and class abilities plus a d20. The results of a successful skill
check tends to be a binary success/failure but since we`re talking about
key skill checks and there isn`t the same magic system for skill checks in
D&D as there is for combat, so that consideration may balance out. (There
_should_ be degrees of success in 3e/D20, but that`s another issue.) CR
awards for successfully performing the significant skill checks in an
adventure can be just as important as defeating the proper monsters, so if
one`s going to use a CR award for performing those critical checks making
it so out of whack with the rest of the CR system seems like a "bias
against skills" (or a "killing things reward system preference" if you
will) rather than a well articulated XP award system for something other
than combat.

Also, the 5 point increments per CR are amazingly broad, leading to CR
equivalents that are completely out of whack. An "average" CR 1 skill
check (DC 17) is about right for a level 1 character. It gives him about a
25% chance to successfully perform a skill check for a cross class skill in
which he has a +2 ability score modifier. The rank and feat modifiers for
lower level characters, of course, are much more significant at that point
because ability scores modifiers don`t increase at the same rate as skill
ranks, so character level is much less important, but that rapidly
changes. An "average" CR 5 skill check on that table is DC 37, which needs
a character level of around 20th for a 25% likelihood of success. That`s a
skill check that no actual 5th level character could successfully
complete. (Unless one includes some sort of "Take 21+" rule.) So those CR
numbers are horribly skewed against actual character levels required, and I
haven`t even reached the weirdness of that "40+" entry.... That table
would appear to be something thrown in without much actual thought as to
what those numbers represent.

Trying to make an award system for individual skill checks straight to CR
probably isn`t going to work very well since the CR system assumes things
like using up resources and represents the results of several d20 rolls,
plus damage, etc. One might be able to use a system of CR awards in a
slightly more holistic way, though. If one were to take the CR equivalents
from the table above and add ALL the skill checks performed during an
adventure up in the same way that CRs are added up on the EL table then one
might be able to use that table as the basis of an award system. Because
that table is skewed in favor of lower levels, however, it would make those
awards much more significant for low level characters.

A domain action represents a month`s worth of skill checks, activities and
supervision on the part of the regent, so a straight DC to CR equivalent
probably isn`t the way to go. Right now I`m thinking a "story award"
system that had modifiers for the effect and influence of the event makes
more sense. In BR terms, a Rule action that raised a holding from level 7
to level 8 would be worth more than the same action that raised a holding
from level 1 to 2.

Gary

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Birthright-L]

On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Gary wrote:
> >So even the most difficult domain actions, if they`re done as DCs, should
> >top out around CR 6. An opposed check (the Diplomacy or Contest actions
> >maybe) would be CR based on the opponent.
>
> I don`t think the CR equivalents for that table very accurately reflect the
> actual challenge ratings very well. At least not in comparison to how CR
> works in other aspects of the system and how the awards are normally
> determined.

I disagree. I think the table makes a good point. CR is based on both
expenditure of resources, and risk. Combat has both, and gets a high CR
progression. Story skill checks, and domain actions (in my view) have
expenditure of resources, but not much risk, and the risk is the more
important part, so they don`t go up as rapidly as the DC might suggest.


> The results of a successful skill check tends to be a binary
> success/failure but since we`re talking about key skill checks and
> there isn`t the same magic system for skill checks in D&D as there is
> for combat, so that consideration may balance out. (There _should_ be
> degrees of success in 3e/D20, but that`s another issue.)

There are degrees of success for combat (criticals), and I think that will
eventually make its way over to skill checks. I`ve tried to unify the BAB
and skill systems, making melee attack a str skill for instance, but it`s
a monstrous pain in the ass.


> Right now I`m thinking a "story award" system that had modifiers for
> the effect and influence of the event makes more sense. In BR terms,
> a Rule action that raised a holding from level 7 to level 8 would be
> worth more than the same action that raised a holding from level 1 to
> 2.

The story awards still need to scale based on risk and expenditure of
resources, like CR. For a large wealthy domain, like Muden or Ghoere,
there isn`t much difference between that Rule ->8 and Rule ->2; they have
enough RP to succeed every time without it really being a drain on their
resources.

So maybe a CR system for domain actions, with the character level of the
regent modified by domain power. Hmm.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.