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  1. #1
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    If Seamanship 2E could be a Professeion (Sailor) now, what would
    Navigation be? Profession (Captain of a ship)?

    I wondered that nothing was in the 3E manual, where the other Birthright
    skills and feats were converted, like Administration or
    Law=Knowledge(Nobility/Royalty).

    What check would have to be made when a ship is in danger of foundering or
    grounding instead of the seaworthiness, instead of Navigation or Seamanship
    (as in the 2E Naval rules).
    bye
    Michael

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  2. #2
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    Profession (sailor). It is an all-inclusive skill. Basically, Profession skills cover all aspects of being able to make a living that way. If you want to get more complex about it, I suppose you could add a Profession (captain) skill, but I don't see how that would really be significantly different - I'd rather express the captain role in terms of being a higher-level character with more ranks in the Profession (sailor) skill. No need to pointlessly increase the number of mechanically useless skills.

    For seaworthiness checks, replace the navigation/seamanship stuff with a Profession (sailor) check. Say ... DC 15 basically, +5 to +10 depending on the ship's seaworthiness, +5 to +15 depending on weather condition, +0 to +20 depending on the state of the ship - at a DC of 60, an epic-level seafarer can take even a wreck through the storm of the century...

    Bottom line: Use Profession (sailor) for all the tasks a sailor would do at sea that are related to sailing, excepting those that are specifically handled by other skills, such as using ropes or keeping his balance on deck (though a synergy or circumstance bonus might be applied there)...
    Jan E. Juvstad.

  3. #3
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>
    Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 4:01 PM

    > If Seamanship 2E could be a Professeion (Sailor) now, what would
    > Navigation be? Profession (Captain of a ship)?

    One of the things I do to restore some of that finess from the old
    proficiency system is to use the lower-of-two-skills sometimes. A guy with
    Profession (Sailor) knows about being at sea. A guy with Profession
    (Sailor) and Rope Use is a sailor. A guy with Profession (Sailor) and
    Intuit Direction or Knowledge (Cartography) or Knowledge (Astronomy) is a
    navigator. A sextant is a quality tool used in the performance of a
    navigation check. A ship`s captain has Profession (Sailor) and the same
    kinds of skills and feats which we might find with any other leader:
    Intimidation, Diplomacy, Profession (Administrator), the Leadership feat,
    &c.

    > I wondered that nothing was in the 3E manual, where the other Birthright
    > skills and feats were converted, like Administration or
    > Law=Knowledge(Nobility/Royalty).

    I use Profession (Administrator). I prefer using the Wis skill, and
    allowing synergies with the appropriate knowledge areas. I also use
    Knowledge (Law).

    > What check would have to be made when a ship is in danger of
    > foundering or grounding instead of the seaworthiness, instead of
    > Navigation or Seamanship (as in the 2E Naval rules).

    I`d use a Knowledge (Cartography) with a +2 synergy bonus for 5 ranks of
    Profession (Sailor) for avoiding running aground in shallow waters. If
    there is no map of the area, I`d use Knowledge (Nature). To avoid
    foundering in rough weather, I`d use Profession (Sailor) with a synergy
    bonus for any one of a number of Knowledge skills.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  4. #4
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 02:01 PM 10/2/2002 -0700, Michael Romes wrote:

    >If Seamanship 2E could be a Professeion (Sailor) now, what would
    >Navigation be? Profession (Captain of a ship)?

    I think there are really two major aspects of this issue. First, what
    exactly does one do when one navigates? What kind of DCs and game
    mechanics would Navigation require? Second, should Navigation fit under
    one of the existing skills? If so which one?

    Several aspects of the 3e system are not particularly well defined, and has
    some rather glaring gaps. Even if one were going to use one of the
    standard skills for navigation how would one set the DC? What skill should
    be used? Etc. Being a polyskillaholic, I wrote up a Navigate skill for
    use primarily for oversea travel. You could, however, use it for very long
    trips through wilderness areas or some similar type of travel. It includes
    a set of sample DCs, modifiers and a description of how long a navigation
    check will take as well as a few other things that should have been in the
    3e skill system in the first diddle-dang place. The format of the table
    showing those DCs is going to get a little screwed up when emailed and
    reproduced on BR.net. If its totally indecipherable let me know and I`ll
    give it another shot.

    I make the Navigation skill a separate skill from Vocation, Sailor* or
    Profession, Naval Officer ** but there`s no reason why one couldn`t roll
    Navigation into the Profession skill or into Intuit Direction if one felt
    like it.

    Well... actually there are a few reasons why one wouldn`t want to roll it
    into another skill. For one thing those skills already have uses,
    descriptions, etc. If one rolls Navigation into Profession, Sailor/Sea
    Captain/Naval Officer/Whatever then one adds a pretty significant utility
    to that particular flavor of the Profession skill while another character
    who takes ranks in Profession, Soldier/Army Officer/Whatever is going to be
    shorted out. (Assuming, of course, you don`t add some sort of similar
    utility to every other possible category of the Profession skill.) Another
    problem IMO is that if one rolls Navigation into some permutation of the
    Profession skill then you wind up with all characters having the same
    knowledge of navigation that every other professional of that type has when
    it`s very conceivable to have a character who knows how to operate a
    sailing, but not navigate and vice versa. If neither of those things are a
    concern then its not a problem to roll it into some other skill.

    As for Intuit Direction, I think Navigating is a very different skill. One
    could roll Navigation into Intuit Direction as well, assuming that
    Navigation is more of a wisdom based skill rather than the intellectual
    process involving geography and math, but I think that pretty drastically
    alters the Intuit Direction skill to the point where it is no longer
    intuitive, nor is it simply a direction being determined... but one could
    still roll it on into that skill and it would probably work fine.

    * My "vocation" skill works almost exactly like the profession skill, but
    comprises more manual labor type jobs, where profession skills are those
    that require learning and are primarily intellectual occupations. I
    separate them mostly so I can give a different pay scale to each and limit
    access to them as class skills for various character classes.

    ** I try to use as general a term as possible when describing the category
    of a particular skill. Profession, Ship Captain would imply that the only
    guy who could possibly have that skill would be, of course, the captain of
    the ship or someone who had had that position at one point or another. A
    Naval Officer category describes a much broader range of people learning
    what are pretty much the same skills. A ship`s captain just might be
    higher level and have more ranks in that skill than would a junior
    purser. (Let`s hope.)


    Navigate (Int)
    Using this skill you can plot a course oversea or over great distances
    through the wilderness.
    Check: Make a Navigation check when traveling over great distances. A
    Navigate check is made at the beginning of a voyage or journey. The
    distance between landmarks determines the distance covered by a Navigation
    check. Landmarks for the purpose of the Navigate skill are your starting
    location and landfall for a sea voyage or your starting location and any
    significant landmark (signposts, some terrain feature, a city, town or
    village) when traveling over land.
    Use the following base DCs and modifiers to determine the DC of a
    Direction check:

    Distance/Condition DC/Modifier Lost Multiplier
    1 or more miles 5 x½
    10 or more miles 10 x1
    50 or more miles 15 x3
    100 or more miles 20 x5
    500 or more miles 25 x10
    1,000 or more miles 30 x20
    Open terrain (plain, desert, etc.) -5
    Standard terrain (hills, steppes, etc.) 0
    Dense terrain (forests, jungles, swamps, etc.) +5
    Rain during travel period +5
    Storms during travel period +10

    If you fail a Navigate check the amount by which you missed the DC of
    the check is multiplied by the Lost Multiplier to determine your distance
    from your intended destination. For example, you are traveling through the
    wilderness between the city of Bandaloo and the ruins of the city of Cazil
    that is 200 miles away through thick jungles. There are no roads or road
    signs to direct you to your destination, so the entire distance between
    your starting point and your destination is the distance of the
    journey. During the journey it rains constantly. The DC for this Navigate
    check is 30 (20 +5 for terrain +5 for weather.) If you roll a modified 23
    you have missed by 7 and end the journey 35 (7 x5) miles away from Cazil.
    If you fail a Navigate check you must make another Navigate check (same
    DC but this time with a +5 to your check) to determine your
    location. Failure of this check means you are lost.
    A Navigate check takes 2-4 minutes. Taking 20 on a Navigate check takes
    1 hour.
    Retry: None.
    Special: Use of a compass or sextant gives a +3 to Navigate
    checks. Masterwork versions of the same devices give a total +5 modifier
    to direction checks. These modifiers do not stack. If you are familiar
    with the route you are taking, or are traveling with someone who is, you
    gain a +5 modifier on your Navigate check. This modifier does stack with
    other modifiers.

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  5. #5
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    The best reason for separating the Seamanship and Navigatons skills that I
    can think of is socio-historical.

    Sailors were common, and even sailing officers were rather common.

    Navigators were highly educated, guild/state-controlled and very rare up
    until the 18th century.


    I played in a pirate campaign where seamanship was a profession and
    navigation a knowledge. This gave bards and wizards a monopoly on navigation
    (the only core classes with access tot all knowledge skills). Lucky ships
    had a ship`s wizard - the rest had to settle for an expert.

    The Fighter class doesn`t even have access to the profession skill - which
    makes them marines and not sailors. This increased the number of Rangers on
    board - ranger became a swashbuckler class.

    But many sailors were just green hands, lacking any skill and only
    contributing their physical strength to the running of the ship.

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  6. #6
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    Hi Carl!
    I like your explanation and it fits perfectly in the description of the
    sextant that has been developed by Muden (in the Brechtür book).

    However the Aristocrat (Lord or Guilder) has access to the Knowledge
    skill as well, not only Experts, Bards and Wizard
    bye
    Michael
    *********************
    Carl Cramér wrote:

    >The best reason for separating the Seamanship and Navigatons skills that I
    >can think of is socio-historical.
    >Sailors were common, and even sailing officers were rather common.
    >Navigators were highly educated, guild/state-controlled and very rare up
    >until the 18th century.
    >I played in a pirate campaign where seamanship was a profession and
    >navigation a knowledge. This gave bards and wizards a monopoly on navigation
    >(the only core classes with access tot all knowledge skills). Lucky ships
    >had a ship`s wizard - the rest had to settle for an expert.
    >The Fighter class doesn`t even have access to the profession skill - which
    >makes them marines and not sailors. This increased the number of Rangers on
    >board - ranger became a swashbuckler class.
    >But many sailors were just green hands, lacking any skill and only
    >contributing their physical strength to the running of the ship.
    >

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  7. #7
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    Michael Romes <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE> wrote at 02-10-03 12.10:

    > However the Aristocrat (Lord or Guilder) has access to the Knowledge
    > skill as well, not only Experts, Bards and Wizard

    I was only speaking foir that particular campaign - and aristocrat wasn`t
    exactly an option for that bunch of cutthroat pirates. But of course, you
    are right, and aristicrats can make excellent (if rare) navigators.

    /Carl

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  8. #8
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    >Navigators were highly educated, guild/state-controlled and very rare up
    >until the 18th century.

    They also weren`t strictly necessary, as most sailing was done in sight of
    land, or a hop across the Mediterranean/Krachenauricht (blew that one).
    You don`t really need a navigator for that. They`re necessary for
    deep-ocean sailing, and probably the only people in Cerilia that do that
    are the Khinasi, going to historical Basarji lands.
    --
    Communication is possible only between equals.
    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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  9. #9
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    I left as Profession (sailor) and Knowledge (navigation), but I recommend
    the use of Expert NPCs for most of the sailors out there. Navigation is
    pretty rare, but IMO, and I think historically, nearly all traffic sails
    close to land to keep an eye on the landmarks.
    A sea-officer prestige class (perhaps in the Muden professional service,
    or even some mercenaries) would be pretty cool, but most captains could still
    get away with being Experts.
    Military History Quarterly (Autumn 2002) has an article on Cosimo de
    Medici`s attempt to create a professional navy by making it a knightly order
    (the Sacred Order of the Knights of St. Stephen, created 1561), with a naval
    academy and arsenal. They were to patrol the coast of the duchy of Florence,
    as well as act as mercenaries to the Pope and the Spanish Empire in the
    Mediterranean against both the Ottoman Turks and North African corsairs.
    They later became a Christian version of the corsairs, it seems.
    In BR, perhaps regents or even non-regents might attempt to go this
    route, or there might be one left over from the days of the Empire, just
    waiting for a PC to breathe new life into it!

    Lee.

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  10. #10
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    Lee Hanna <LeeHa1854@AOL.COM> wrote at 02-10-03 18.57:

    > I left as Profession (sailor) and Knowledge (navigation), but I recommend
    > the use of Expert NPCs for most of the sailors out there. Navigation is
    > pretty rare, but IMO, and I think historically, nearly all traffic sails
    > close to land to keep an eye on the landmarks.

    In my exerience, exterts have too many skill points to make good sailores -
    warriors work just as well.

    Experts are only needed for specialists, such as carpenters and navigators.

    /Carl

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