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Thread: Carilon Alam

  1. #1
    Ehrshegh of Spelling Thelandrin's Avatar
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    Carilon Alam

    Discussion thread for Carilon Alam.

    So what's the issue with this page? I know it's a bit Daily Mail-ish and scare-mongery, but it's fairly similar in tone to what it says in Ruins of Empire.

  2. #2
    I think it is pretty close to right on. He is on record as trying almost anything to get the Tournen reunited with Alamie. Baubb the Toymaker the clearest example of this.

    I am not sure he would do anything for the Iron Throne ... it is clearly out of his reach at the moment. Bringing the Arch-duchy back together makes more sense as a motivation.

    I suppose the wording could be toned down a bit .... but I don't feel it is out of place.

    -BB

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    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    It appears to be written by his enemies.

    Its useless as a guide to how his friends and allies might see him. A good description should read like an objective account of his motivations, strengths and weaknesses. If he is meant to be a villain, we should understand how he is a villain. Show us he bad behavior, don't tell us he is bad.

    If he is described as a real person and not a stock villain, PC's might surprise you and befriend and embrace Carilon's cause. I don't see that happening as he is currently written, unless the PC's explicitly want to play villains.

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    Ehrshegh of Spelling Thelandrin's Avatar
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    Hmmm, well, that is the same tone as used in the original book. Maybe that's how the writers wanted to portray Carilon - as a weak and rather foolish villain. The Alamie page will need updating if Carilon's page is hacked about, but I'll see what I can do while I'm currently on my Alamien binge

    Edit: I've now revised the article - take a look! I see what you mean about hostile language - it's even more glaring in the other Alam profiles now that I've revised Carilon's biography.
    Last edited by Thelandrin; 10-25-2008 at 11:44 PM.

    Ius Hibernicum, in nomine juris. Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.

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    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Why does he love gold? Why does he love power? These are means, not ends. People want these things because of what they hope these tools can achieve for them. From other parts of Carilon's description, the reunification of greater Alamie seems to be his real objective, but its not clear. I would suspect that Carilon wants gold and power as means to achieve this restoration. The separation of Tuornen and Alamie in his eyes is nothing but a temporary and unnatural state to be ended as soon as possible.

    This raises several questions. Why has this rather long ruled leader, otherwise so obsessed with the reunification of Alamie not achieved it yet? There are two sensible answers (and maybe more). One is that he has tried before and its just never mentioned in any materials, so we'll have to supply names and places. The other is that he has been accumulating the resources to to make one really big push. Unfortunately neither of these is well supported by the facts on the ground. If Carilon is hoping to seize all of Tuornen, he needs a much larger bank of GB and RP than he has, and he really should have holdings already established. Everyone else does. Darien and Aeric have law holdings, why not Carilon?

    So, one reasons, either he has tried and left no evidence of these attempts (other than a possible explanation why Tuornen is in such bad shape, which I frankly prefer to the regent gone senile explanation hinted at elsewhere) or he has tried to amass a vast treasury of GB and RP only to be forced to use it for other things. If the latter, what things? Also, if this is the case, than the unification of Alamie is not his single obsession but more like an unrealized dream, and should fall into the background of his description.

    Why was the link to his dead wife removed?

    Why are there no links to him in his children's descriptions?

    Why are introduction paragraphs removed? Every description should begin with an encyclopedia type entry of facts and links that tell the reader who this is. Name, title, lands, relations. Then a character description. One should not have to read three paragraphs to figure out the salient facts of who this person is.

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    Ehrshegh of Spelling Thelandrin's Avatar
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    Well, I was savaging the huge Alamie article and breaking it up into various other articles, so not everything is working properly yet. I've put some links in, but obviously a great deal of work is still in need of doing. I just started it off for now.

    Ius Hibernicum, in nomine juris. Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck View Post
    Why does he love gold? Why does he love power? These are means, not ends. People want these things because of what they hope these tools can achieve for them. From other parts of Carilon's description, the reunification of greater Alamie seems to be his real objective, but its not clear. I would suspect that Carilon wants gold and power as means to achieve this restoration. The separation of Tuornen and Alamie in his eyes is nothing but a temporary and unnatural state to be ended as soon as possible.

    This raises several questions. Why has this rather long ruled leader, otherwise so obsessed with the reunification of Alamie not achieved it yet? There are two sensible answers (and maybe more). One is that he has tried before and its just never mentioned in any materials, so we'll have to supply names and places. The other is that he has been accumulating the resources to to make one really big push. Unfortunately neither of these is well supported by the facts on the ground. If Carilon is hoping to seize all of Tuornen, he needs a much larger bank of GB and RP than he has, and he really should have holdings already established. Everyone else does. Darien and Aeric have law holdings, why not Carilon?

    So, one reasons, either he has tried and left no evidence of these attempts (other than a possible explanation why Tuornen is in such bad shape, which I frankly prefer to the regent gone senile explanation hinted at elsewhere) or he has tried to amass a vast treasury of GB and RP only to be forced to use it for other things. If the latter, what things? Also, if this is the case, than the unification of Alamie is not his single obsession but more like an unrealized dream, and should fall into the background of his description.

    Why was the link to his dead wife removed?

    Why are there no links to him in his children's descriptions?

    Why are introduction paragraphs removed? Every description should begin with an encyclopedia type entry of facts and links that tell the reader who this is. Name, title, lands, relations. Then a character description. One should not have to read three paragraphs to figure out the salient facts of who this person is.


    There is a fair amount of information in the Tournen players guide that talks about his failures at reclaiming Tournen. I believe he has tried twice during his reign to take the country back by force. One time he invaded right on the heels of a Rhoubhe Manslayers invasion. Took advantage of the situation. It is explained that Braedonnel is a supposed "great general" and defeated the attempt.

    It also says there that Alam is also training two units of Knights in the north to invade when needed. Not to mention the Baubb the Toymaker plot line that is mentioned not just in the Tournen players guide but in the ruins of Empire book.

    By the looks of it, most of Anuire, specifically the big players, understand what he is. So the information written isn't outrageous. He is a small thinking schemer that is obsessed with reunification. He has let some of his law and influence slide so he can think up his next move against Tournen.

    Not every character needs to have deep under lying feelings and beliefs for their actions. Some characters are just bad. You really can't put a good spin of putting poison darts in children's' toys so they kill the children of nobility in Tournen so he can swoop in and take over during the fallout. That is simply an evil act.

    I also don't like to create characters that are perfect and understand the best way to defeat another country. We look it of course, and see that if he saves his money or begins to try to rule law in Tournen, it would be a good beginning plan to take over the country. I always felt he never thought that long term or that straight forward. He tends to go with a very simplistic thoughts like physically occupying the country or scheming to kill the current ruler.

    -BB

  8. #8
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbeau22 View Post
    Not every character needs to have deep under lying feelings and beliefs for their actions. Some characters are just bad. You really can't put a good spin of putting poison darts in children's' toys so they kill the children of nobility in Tournen so he can swoop in and take over during the fallout. That is simply an evil act.
    Evil is some of the most interesting characterization in literature. Evil is not a reason to take short cuts in character descriptions.

    I also don't like to create characters that are perfect and understand the best way to defeat another country. We look it of course, and see that if he saves his money or begins to try to rule law in Tournen, it would be a good beginning plan to take over the country. I always felt he never thought that long term or that straight forward. He tends to go with a very simplistic thoughts like physically occupying the country or scheming to kill the current ruler.
    This is better description than what's on the page currently. Why not put this up there?

  9. #9
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    I added some stuff - possibly from too much of Carilon's viewpoint although hopefully that simply highlights his failings.

  10. #10
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    I like it very much.

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