2nd edition Vs. 3.5 Awnies

[Dcolby]

Well, as I sit about to rework Sword and Crown for my players. (Disguise and alter the chain of events and update some of the critters to 3.5) I am confronted by a somewhat glaring reality.

The 3.5. Awnies are really really powerful as compared to 2nd edition.

The whole climax of the adventure around the sword and crown is that the players in the end do not confront Rhoubhe and have to take the deal he offers/allows. (The adventure is scaled 4th to 7th) I have no doubt that the Manslayer will or would wipe the floor with them if so low a party confronted him.

However having been there once the players will at some point decide to return and confront him when they feel up to the challenge and this is the crux of my question to the populace.

If a party in 2nd edition chose to Confront the Manslayer (If my memory serves 17th level Fighter and 15th level wizard) they would under D&D 2nd edition be confronting a 19th level challenge. (Again bear with me as this from memory of a game system I have not played in a while) as characters with two or more class levels were considered 2 levels above their highest class level for challenge determination purposes. (MatanThunder Help me out here you are the resident 2nd edition holdout/guru)

The manslayer in 2nd edition did not gain any extra hits from his Mage levels, (I think he had 88 or some such) and thus a party of 11-14th level might expect to be able to succeed in a truely epic confrontaion with the Awnie. Perhaps as a climax to a campaign.

I have seen several incarnations of the manslayer converted to 3.5 in which his 17 fighter and 15 mage levels are carried over intact and this amounts to a 32 level epic NPC.

It seems, and this is of course just me that the original design of the Birthright setting was rather low powered. A 19th Manslayer was a fearsome enough opponet, but acheivable by a determined High Mid/Low Teen leveled party.

A 32nd level epic is unconfrontable by any party that has not reached or crossed the threshold of Epic levels itself.

Now certainly a D.M. can have his baddies as powerful as he or she wants, but confronting a awnie once and being to weak to resist his demands is fine. To repeatedly have the main badguy of the campaign so powerful that the players are cowed over and over is demoralizing.

The manslayer exists in his nearly impregnable realm,in his dread fortress, plotting against the regents that surround him. A 19th level manslayer might do this, raiding out to strike at his hated foes under cover of Darkness.

Not terrified mind you as he is a creature of tremendous power, but careful to ensure that he does not encounter a 12th level Beoruine surrounded by his men at arms and followers directly, or a mid level party of heroes/fools. (The Pathetic humans could get lucky)

The 19th level Manslayer is by need a plotter and puppetmaster who despite his abilities could still be overthrown by tremendous expense, effort and heroism if he could somehow be bearded in his lair.

The 32nd level epic manslayer would fear nothing, crush any who even dared to oppose him. Such a creature would not hold up in his mountain retreat, harassing the human kingdoms about him and plotting on the life of Beoruine, Avan, and Flaertes. It would travel to their courts, kick in the doors, and take what it desired from the objects of its hate. That he forebears from this course makes very little sense.

To me at least it changes the flavor of the campaign to convert directly level for level from 2nd edition. The power structures of the two systems were very very different.

Anyway thats my two cents...your thoughts?

[Elton Robb]

That's the problem with direct conversions. 3rd Edition is far removed from 2nd Edition. To keep Rhoubhe (Rove) about the same power he was in 2nd Edition, you'll have to make him a 10th level fighter, 5th level mage, 4th level Eldritch Knight.

Elton.

[irdeggman]

Yup class levels do not convert directly.

IIRC the D&D 3.0 conversion document had you subtract two for each of a multiclass character's other classes.

IMO I see no reason why the major anwies are not epic level creatures in the first place (> 20th level). They should be since they are so powerful and epic reflects that.

PCs should not be able to reasonably take on the Manslayer or the Gorgon until they are >20 level characters themselves. They are after all taking on near deities.

[Thelandrin]

That's the problem with direct conversions. 3rd Edition is far removed from 2nd Edition. To keep Rhoubhe (Rove) about the same power he was in 2nd Edition, you'll have to make him a 10th level fighter, 5th level mage, 4th level Eldritch Knight.

I'd go with Ftr 4/Wiz 6/EK 10. It makes Rhuobhe 20th-level, emphasises his wizard spells and still gives him fighting punch.

[Elton Robb]

That's certainly true. One thing I'd like to point out, however, that I'd thought that he didn't put as much importance on his wizardling ability so much as his fighting ability.

The Manslayer is a slayer. You could almost say he has at least one level of Ranger and declared human to be his species enemy.

[Dcolby]

PCs should not be able to reasonably take on the Manslayer or the Gorgon until they are >20 level characters themselves. They are after all taking on near deities.

The central point of my post was that the Campaign setting as set up does not support the Manslayer being a 32nd level epic NPC. If he was such a being there is nothing and no one that could contain him. If he has nothing to fear why then is he contained in such a tiny domain?

In the original setting he was about a 19th level effective. The campaign setting is not well served by making him a 32nd level epic. inmo...

[irdeggman]

That's certainly true. One thing I'd like to point out, however, that I'd thought that he didn't put as much importance on his wizardling ability so much as his fighting ability.

The Manslayer is a slayer. You could almost say he has at least one level of Ranger and declared human to be his species enemy.

And that makes a lot of sense.

In 2nd ed BR elves couldn't be ranger/wizards but they can be in 3.5.

So having him be a ranger/wizard instead of a fighter/wizard makes a lot more sense themeatically, at least to me. Or probably a ranger/sorcerer would be an even better fit (using only SRD core classes and no prestige classes).

[ryancaveney]

The central point of my post was that the Campaign setting as set up does not support the Manslayer being a 32nd level epic NPC. If he was such a being there is nothing and no one that could contain him. If he has nothing to fear why then is he contained in such a tiny domain?

Ever since the setting came out, I've always thought of him as being at least that powerful. He was a leader of the elves 1500 years ago, and if any Sidhelien in Cerilia was disciplined (indeed, monomaniacal) enough to keep steadily increasing his skills over those long years, the Manslayer is the one. I think he could take out most human realms entirely by himself. However, I also think he is kept very busy in the Shadow World, contesting directly with the Cold Rider: in my view, he spends all his time and effort ruling the entire *shadow* Aelvinnwode, while leaving the fight against the humans for the rest to all the other, less-epic elves, keeping his one province on the "light" side of the Evanesence mainly for sentimental value.


Ryan

[ConjurerDragon]

Dcolby schrieb:
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> Dcolby wrote:
> ------------ QUOTE ----------
>
> PCs should not be able to reasonably take on the Manslayer or the Gorgon until they are >20 level characters themselves. They are after all taking on near deities.
> -----------------------------
>
>
> The central point of my post was that the Campaign setting as set up does not support the Manslayer being a 32nd level epic NPC. If he was such a being there is nothing and no one that could contain him. If he has nothing to fear why then is he contained in such a tiny domain?
>
> In the original setting he was about a 19th level effective. The campaign setting is not well served by making him a 32nd level epic. inmo...
It makes no difference actually - in 2E Birthright right from the atlas
where the regents are all relatively lowlevel and PC?s start as lowlevel
characters as well a 19th level Rhuobhe is *personally* as fearsome as a
32nd level NPC in 3E. On the domain level however even the most powerful
characters realm had only 3 domain actions in 2E.

Having Rhuobhe be a "static" monster while the PC?s evolve into mighty
heroes sounds wrong to me, so why should they expect Rhuobhe to be the
same opponent the second time they meet him as he was the first time? As
they gain experience so does he while fighting his neighbours.

[Dcolby]

It makes no difference actually - in 2E Birthright right from the atlas
where the regents are all relatively lowlevel and PC?s start as lowlevel
characters as well a 19th level Rhuobhe is *personally* as fearsome as a
32nd level NPC in 3E. On the domain level however even the most powerful
characters realm had only 3 domain actions in 2E.

Having Rhuobhe be a "static" monster while the PC?s evolve into mighty
heroes sounds wrong to me, so why should they expect Rhuobhe to be the
same opponent the second time they meet him as he was the first time? As
they gain experience so does he while fighting his neighbours.

I still must differ with you on this slightly...I do not contend that Rhoubhe should be static...The rate of progression for a High level slows as the the lower level P.C.s approach the point where they can contend with the manslayer. Perhaps not defeat, but certainly contend with.

(Certainly Rhoubhe does not gain much experiance anymore for killing low level humans so despite his 1500 years of butchery very few foes any longer have anything to teach him.)

And certainly to a 1-8th level PC in any edition a 19th level NPC and a 32 level NPC are little different in the scale of how dead you are after it is all over.

However in both 2 ed and 3.5 a party between 11th and 14th level could hope to give the 19th level Manslayer at least a scare. If not perform some outright heroic deads.

The 3.5 32 level epic Rhoubhe is nigh untouchable by the typical power levels described by the setting and therefore free to cleanse the humans from Cerillia.

Indeed there is nothing to prevent such a creature (Realm actions aside) from walking into the Imperial City and laying waste, such a being may be contested in say Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms where potential epics could gather to counter it. However the power levels of the inhabitants of the Former Anuirean empire to do not suggest this possibility.

I think direct level for level conversion of the super Awnies from 2 ed to 3.5destroys the flavor and intended balence of the campaign.

The Awnies are there to act as adversaries and be contested eventually by your players. (Perhaps not the Gorgon)

I think that Epic Players upset the setting balence as much as an Epic Awnie.

So again after all my babble it is a matter of styles and so I guess I want my Awnies to be eventually challenged....to each their own Anuire so to speak.