Clarifications...

[Panics]

Hi,

I really need clarifications for my game... so here are the informations :

The Duchy of the Small Teeth is comprise of five counties: Arindell (1), Barroto (1), Brost (4) and Rockmoor (2).

Arindell and Barroto are controlled by two of my PCs. One being a Paladin and the other a Wizardess.

Brost is controlled by an NPC, who is also ruler of the Duchy for the Crown of Tethyr.

Rockmoor is controlled by an NPC dwarves, who have allied with the Duchy and the Crown.

Questions:

Do my PCs have to control the law holding (1) to rule their province ?
By ruling there province, do the PCs receive the GB equivalent to the province level ?

1) if they don't control the law holding ?
2) if they control the law holding ?

The Duchy Ruler (and ruler of Brost)(Ieval Boralail) receive how many GB ?

Thanks ! I'm really mixed up !

[AndrewTall]

You don't need to control the law to be the ruler - although it certainly helps...

The ruler is the titular head of the realm - the king if you will. The law holding can represent the kings guards, magistrates paid by the fines the collect and secure as long as they operate reasonably within the system of law, or bandits and the like...

If the ruler does not control law holdings they have trouble enforcing decrees, levying taxation (effected via domain attitude) and generally making their will known - but they are still ruler and can raise troops, occupy the province, and raze anyone else's holdings if they have too so they have plenty of 'broad-brush' power - just no 'fine-brush'

The income is different in BRCS and in AD&D versions, but in the BRCS page 95 table 5-11 shows income. 1 GB per province level for the ruler, so Brost generate 4 GB for its ruler each domain turn.

If the ruler (Ieval Boralail) also controls, say, 2 of the law holdings he gets 4 GB for the province and 2/3 GB for the law holdings (2 x 1/3) for a total of 4+2/3 GB.

[Panics]

ok...

but does my PCs gain the Province Level for their countries ? (because the Duchy ruler has stated that THEY govern it)

Do they have to pay their Castles (or tower) maintenance ? or is it the Duchy job ?
The Roads ?
The Tethyrian Army ?

Law holding would be maintained by the Duchy Ruler (Who respond to Tethyr Crown)

Hierarchy is like that:

Crown of Tethyr (Crown-King)
Duchies (Domain)
Countries (Province)

Logically... my PCs couldn't rule the law holdings since all the Realm follows the laws of the Crown of Tethyr. But Duchies may have some difference (as States) in the laws. Countries would be bound to duchies or be considered rebellious.

Do I have to split Ieval Boralail income because he rules the Duchy (domain) and a County (province) ?

Thanks

[kgauck]

Lower level goverance is an interesting aspect of play. I actually prefer it to having people at the very top person in a domain or realm. However, the BR rules assume you are always the top person in your organization, or you have no organization. So, either Arindell and Barroto are independent realms owing only nominal allegiance to the duchy, according to a vassalage agreement enforced only by a one time penalty; or Arindell and Barroto belong to the duke and you your PC's are just window dressing as far as realm actions go.

This is, at least, according to the standard rules.

[The Swordgaunt]

An interesting parallel is RL France in the 15th Century. Charles VI of France, who by Law commanded the realm. However, due to a few political moves (assassinations and such) Philip III, the Duke of Burgundy, allied with the English. Even so, Charles VII had the right to grant land to loyal vassals on Burgundian land.

In BR trems, I'd say that the land was invested to the king, whereas the Duke was a major Law holder (the Burgundians even controlled Paris – mostly through guilders sic). Still, other nobles of lower rank allied with one or the other, or even directly with the English. Razing and fierce contesting was the order of the day.

The revisionist story of Gilles de Rais offers a nice example of a man who fell victim to the game of thrones, while the "standard" version tells a story of an evil sorcerer (perhaps even an aspiering awnsheglien)

[irdeggman]

in order to gain regency from a province you must be teh invested ruler of the province. If the ruler is running several provinces (and has been invested as such) then he gains regency from the province.

Who ever is invested with the holding (or province) in question gains the regency.

Now a character can be established as a "vassal" and thus rule his own provinces but pay tribute to an overlord based on what he brings in.

All of these arrangements are flexible and based on whatever agreement has been established.

I would ask the DM how the arrangements have been made for when the game starts.

[Panics]

well interesting ! You're right in saying that BR rules are mainly for Domain rulership. I found it sad that there's not rule for simple characters wishing to rule a part of land and adventuring. In my mind, when characters reach above 10th level they should settle a bit. And it takes the characters 2-3 years to reach theses levels.

I found myself to conclude that my PCs would receive the Province Level in GB, but would have to pay tribute to the Duchy for Road maintenance, Army and other Duchy fortification. Maybe around 25% of their income.

They could have their own troops, stronghold, etc. And could do Character and Standard actions. But no Court or Realms actions. Unless they control the Law holding and/or pay for a Court.

The Duchy would pay the same amount (25% of its income) to the Crown. But that's another level of play !

[kgauck]

My own solution is that counts, jarls, and province leaders collect and additional allotment of full regency for their provinces, and half the amount of gold as the regent of the whole domain. This effectivly doubles the amount of regency in a game, and the DM has to consider that in offense and defense.

Typically I assumed that provincial lords are primarily responsible for the defense of the realm, so that the PC's had to spend to protect the realm before the kings would come to their defense. This tends to keep PC's regency poor.

Another approach is to split RP and GP between the kings/dukes and the jarls/counts in half, or any proportion that fits your model of the relationship.

[irdeggman]

Panics,

A belated "welcome".

You seem to have established a vassel - lord relationship (without realizing it).

The rules (both the 2nd ed and 3.5 sets) do work for what you are trying to accomplish.

There is a ruler of a province and a ruler for each holding type.

They do not need to be the same.

A ruler can rule more than one province but doesn't need to (2nd ed Ruins of Empire examples of this include: Endier, Ilien, the Imperial City (treated as a separate province), Spiderfell are the prime ones.

A province ruler is responsible for maintenance of infrastructure (in 2nd ed this was part of the maintence costs, in 3.5 it is brokend down some more). Now he can establish a payment plan from major holding holders (specifically the guilds since trade routes "require" roads or ports in order to function) to help mitigate this - usually in exchange for some deal of "protection from invasion".

All of these arrangements can be accomplished via Diplomacy actions (I had allowed mutliple actions/deals to be done via a single Diplomacy action in my games).

I do not know if you are using the BRCS or the original 2nd ed rules so it is difficult to convey how these are done.

In the 2nd ed rules, existing provinces/holdings structures were detailed. But this did not mean they had to be that way for PCs. That is if a PC is playing a regent nothing says that the break down of assets and holdings had to be the same. It was up to the DM to lay the land out the way he wanted at the start of the game.

[AndrewTall]

Hmm, you can still have your own troops as an intermediate vassal.

From the sound of it tethyr may be a nominal country but in reality a series of independent fifes (i.e. Avanil and Boeruine are part of Anuire but the local lord is the 'real king' whoever sits on the throne in the imperial city)

The parcel of land sort of thing you are looking for sounds like the 'manors' holdings that some people (like the Green Knight) use - have a look on his website.

These are a holding representing land and minor title - if you want to design such a holding just add a column to your domain tables, decide if they can affect other holding types (like law holdings) or are hard to influence (like source holdings) etc balance off with other holding types with income rates and off you go...