Realm Spell Saving Throws

**geeman** · 08-06-2006, 04:03 AM

At 05:39 AM 8/5/2006, irdeggman wrote:

>Ahh but the "historical" strength of a wizard`s tower (which is not
>a manifestation by the way since it is not natural at all) was in
>its isolation adn then in its "magical protections" (e.g., wards and
>the like). Their strength was not in the number of people they had
>to stand gaurd over the tower.

Most of the time awizard`s tower is probably not a manifestation in
most sources, though in certain cases it might be used as one. For
instance, in the case of the destroyed tower of the College of
Sorcery, the smoldering grounds of the former college might be where
the wizards of the new college have/share a source(0) holding from
which to anchor ley lines. At least, as a DM I`d be perfectly happy
with that rationale.

Among the elves we have a special situation also. In a couple places
ancient elven structures are described as being source manifestations
or as being powerful enough to increase the source potential of a
province. That makes me suspect that elven structures are, at least,
somewhat magical in nature and might be more than simple
dwellings. As elves are magical by nature their dwellings might
focus the magic of the area and become manifestations.

That might also be a rationale for the way their population does not
decrease source holdings. Their construction actually increases the
magical properties of the land rather than the opposite.

Gary

**irdeggman** · 08-06-2006, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by geeman

At 05:39 AM 8/5/2006, irdeggman wrote:

>Ahh but the "historical" strength of a wizard`s tower (which is not
>a manifestation by the way since it is not natural at all) was in
>its isolation adn then in its "magical protections" (e.g., wards and
>the like). Their strength was not in the number of people they had
>to stand gaurd over the tower.

Most of the time awizard`s tower is probably not a manifestation in
most sources, though in certain cases it might be used as one. For
instance, in the case of the destroyed tower of the College of
Sorcery, the smoldering grounds of the former college might be where
the wizards of the new college have/share a source(0) holding from
which to anchor ley lines. At least, as a DM I`d be perfectly happy
with that rationale.

Or it was something else entirely - an artifact of some type? The fact that city kept increasing in size over the years could have also contributed. Either way that is one source specifically stated to be a "mystery" in the 2nd ed material.

Among the elves we have a special situation also. In a couple places
ancient elven structures are described as being source manifestations
or as being powerful enough to increase the source potential of a
province. That makes me suspect that elven structures are, at least,
somewhat magical in nature and might be more than simple
dwellings. As elves are magical by nature their dwellings might
focus the magic of the area and become manifestations.

That might also be a rationale for the way their population does not
decrease source holdings. Their construction actually increases the
magical properties of the land rather than the opposite.

Gary

Or it could be that they actually create things out of existing and living materials. Like the Thron Throne or how the "typcial" elven houses are described in the PS of Tuar. I would akin this more to the life-shaping ability of halflings in Dark Sun rather than just building things.

Another possibility is that the elves themselves being so inherently magical and tied to the meib. of the land actually "contribute" to its source potential while at the same time reducing it by manufacturing. So there is a net loss of 0 in the source potential for elven lands. This one makes the most sense to me since it also ties into the the "history" of the elves from the PS of Tuar and Boodspawn.

**geeman** · 08-06-2006, 09:32 PM

At 06:06 AM 8/6/2006, you wrote:

>>Most of the time awizard`s tower is probably not a manifestation in
>>most sources, though in certain cases it might be used as one. For
>>instance, in the case of the destroyed tower of the College of
>>Sorcery, the smoldering grounds of the former college might be where
>>the wizards of the new college have/share a source(0) holding from
>>which to anchor ley lines. At least, as a DM I`d be perfectly happy
>>with that rationale.
>
>Or it was something else entirely - an artifact of some type? The
>fact that city kept increasing in size over the years could have
>also contributed. Either way that is one source specifically stated
>to be a "mystery" in the 2nd ed material.

I`m kind of liking the possibilities here. If its the building
itself and/or an artifact in the ruins (which may itself have been
responsible for the destruction of the tower) there is a pretty good
denouement for one of the more obvious adventure possibilities in the
published materials. That is, the idea of exploring those ruins is
pretty near a prototypical D&D adventure, but if the point in the
adventure is to gain control of a manifestation that amounts to a
source(0) then it has some BR flair to it. Something to think
about.... I`m a big proponent of role-playing out the domain level
actions at the adventure level rather than just resolving them with
some GB, RP and a die roll. Making the typical dungeon crawl into a
BR specific process is pretty much the definitive way to do that.

Upon reflection we should bear in mind that there are magic items
that have a pretty profound effect on source holdings. Rings of ley,
jewels/stones that act as holding levels, etc. Those are powerful
items and should be recognized as part of the whole manifestation
issue. The physical appearance of a source holding might be very
much like those items (though less mobile) in size, appearance,
etc. One must consider that in order to determine how such an
adventure might be portrayed.

>Or it could be that they actually create things out of existing and
>living materials. Like the Thron Throne or how the "typcial" elven
>houses are described in the PS of Tuar. I would akin this more to
>the life-shaping ability of halflings in Dark Sun rather than just
>building things.
>
>Another possibility is that the elves themselves being so inherently
>magical and tied to the meib. of the land actually "contribute" to
>its source potential while at the same time reducing it by
>manufacturing. So there is a net loss of 0 in the source potential
>for elven lands. This one makes the most sense to me since it also
>ties into the the "history" of the elves from the PS of Tuar and Boodspawn.

Like most rationales of BR issues, I think a combination of both (and
a few other) explanations is the best way to go. It can sometimes
make for a bit of confusion if there are several routes to the same
end result, but it`s actually less confusing than trying to come up
with explanations on the fly or trying to fit rules on top of a
role-playing effect (which is what all those rationales really are.)

Gary

**gazza666** · 08-07-2006, 05:22 AM

On a (somewhat) related note - are there any plans to extend the list of Realm spells? It seems like they are fairly scarce at present - while certainly the major categories of things you'd like to do with them are covered, there's surely scope here for extension.

I'm afraid I don't own the Book of Magecraft or similar - did they have a more extensive list that haven't been converted yet, or was it deemed that many of them were in some way inappropriate?

**irdeggman** · 08-07-2006, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by gazza666

On a (somewhat) related note - are there any plans to extend the list of Realm spells? It seems like they are fairly scarce at present - while certainly the major categories of things you'd like to do with them are covered, there's surely scope here for extension.

I'm afraid I don't own the Book of Magecraft or similar - did they have a more extensive list that haven't been converted yet, or was it deemed that many of them were in some way inappropriate?

There were several printed Realm spells that didn't make the playtest document. Most of the ommisions were by oversight and rushing to get the product out. So yes there will be some more added that were left out.

But having said that - don't limit your self to only those published. Use them as a basis to research and invent your own. Remember that every Realm Spell is individually keyed to the person that researches it. Wizard X's version of Demagogue is different than wizard Y's even if they accomplish the same effect. They function much like epic spells in that manner.

**gazza666** · 08-07-2006, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by irdeggman

But having said that - don't limit your self to only those published. Use them as a basis to research and invent your own. Remember that every Realm Spell is individually keyed to the person that researches it. Wizard X's version of Demagogue is different than wizard Y's even if they accomplish the same effect. They function much like epic spells in that manner.

Excellent point, of course. It's just that I don't really have a good "feel" for what level and source requirements a new spell might have; a few more examples would solidify that for me.