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  1. #1
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    A have a question about sneak attacks, say for an example you are a thief and are able to surprise an opponent from behind leaving him flat-footed and unaware and you have the ability to attack twice per round, are both you attacks considered sneak attacks or just the first one?
    Lord Shaene Conlynd
    Regent - United Provinces of Haelyn

  2. #2
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    Is this 2nd Ed or 3rd??In 2nd you only got one.....PERIOD.In 3rd they never said you only got one.But if you are the DM I HIGHLY recommend you find ways of limiting the hell out of it.If you have a power-gamer in your group,or a Rules Lawyer for that fact,they will rape that mother for everything they can.

    I would personally limit to only the first attack.You also have to be careful about flanking.I rule I have come up with is even if technically you and a fellow player flank someone,but the enemy is NOT engaged in combat with the other player,you CANNOT get your bonus dice to damage.To me a sneak attack,and the reason you get extra damage,is because you are catching an opponent off-guard and you are being careful to hit him where it would hurt the most.You cannot do that with two-swords zipping around,or if a guy is doing nothing but paying attention to you,and is waiting for you to come up to him.
    "Victory has a thousand fathers,defeat is an orphan."

  3. #3
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    Since I am the DM in Lord Shaene's world, I will rule with Riegan on the grounds he puts forth. Once the first weapon hits the opponent is no longer off guard!
    Lord Eldred
    High Councilor of the
    United Provinces of Cerilia
    "May Haelyn bring justice to your realm"

  4. #4
    Senior Member Lawgiver's Avatar
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    It depends on the definition of: 'you have the ability to attack twice per round'. If its a single weapon and you get two attacks, I would apply it only to the first attack. If its two weapons I would give to both since you could weild them simultaneously. I know that give massive advantage, but combat is deadly, especially unseen blows from behind.

    DISCLAIMER: However, I would stress to the player the limitations of using this ability. I often abuse abusive players with their own devices. A player who backstabs regularly is warned once, if they continue they are soon backstabbed (even if it kills them) themself. Perhaps adding an experience penalty bonus would also be an added deterent. I prefer to keep my players from playing evil PCs. They are heros, and backstabbing isn't very heroic. If the PC feels its absolutely necessary they will be willing to sacrafice EXP for the greater good (which may actaully yeild bonus EXP...).
    Servant of the Most High,
    Lawgiver

    Isaiah 1:17
    Learn to do good; Seek justice, Rebuke the oppressor; Defend the fatherless, Plead for the widow.

  5. #5
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    Riegan, you make some good points, but here are so counter points, 1. if you sneak attack and do some massive damage that in turn would probably stun the guy since he wasn't expecting it, this giving you another oppurtunity to sneak attack the guy again. 2nd obviously if a guy is facing u and defending against u it would be hard to get in a sneak attack, but if you sneak attacked a guy and he decided to keep defending against the other guy who is flanking you, why shouldn't u get another sneak attack if that guy is stupid enough not to turn around. also i believe the named the ability wrong, the reason you get the extra damage is not completely because you surprised the guy but because you are especially trained to hit vital parts and if that guy is not in postition to defend against it ie flat footed, flanked or surprised then he is open to such an attack. as for you Lord Eldred, shame on you, a debate expert yourself and you make a decision before you hear all the arguments, I should have you barred as a judge since you make decisions before the debate is over. and whats with you people trying to limit abilities, a wizard can take out a whole group of creatures with a fireball, but you give a thief the ability to do some decent damage against one opponent under special circumstances and you want to limit it. exp penalty for back stabbing? are you kidding me? why because it isnt heroic? oh yeah, wiping out a party of orcs with one fireball is real heroic because we all know they had a fair chance to kill the wizard whos standing a 100 feet away with their short swords before he got that fireball off, but killing one in the back is evil.
    cmon people come up with better excuses then that.
    Lord Shaene Conlynd
    Regent - United Provinces of Haelyn

  6. #6
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    I agree that Backstabs (or sneak/flanking attacks) shouldn't be penalized. Its hard enough to get a backstab when its needed, limiting this ability is ridiculous. Not all heros are honorable people. Its not overpowered (anymore) and shouldn't be any more limited than any other classes abilities.

    I do believe that only the first strike should count (or two if two weapons are involved, if the player can explain how they are used). If the victim intentionally ignores the source, further attacks could be possible. However, I think that even if the victim doesn't about face to his sneak-assailant, it doesn't neccesarily mean that he/she isn't trying to defend themselves against them. The victim could try to open their stance up a bit without changing face, to thwart further sneak attacks. I don't know if this works perfectly, but a continuous stream of super-attacks is terribly unbalanced.
    Explain how this is a signature, its not my handwriting.

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    In the Phb (3rd) page 47 states "if an rogue can catch a opponent when he unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can attack a vital spot for extra damage" it goes on that the victim must be denied his dex bonus and while the rogue has the advantage and the victim is flat-footed for the whole time the rogue attacks even when the rogue gets 2 or 3 attacks. They are all sneak attacks and do extra damage.

    When the victims can act he is no longer flat-footed. Thats why all rogues should have Improved Init and a decent Dex. Murder machines :0

    dmferry
    sorry if I broke © rights :(

  8. #8
    Senior Member Lawgiver's Avatar
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    Orginally posted by Lawgiver
    Perhaps adding an experience penalty bonus would also be an added deterent...
    Before you jump down my throat, please note I said 'PERHAPS'...
    I've lucked out and had responsible players who don't abuse the rules, so this isn't an issue. I was throwing oout ideas to limit the power gamers and abusive players.

    based on the rule quoted by DMFerry its my judgement that the second attack would still get the bonus since the opponent is technically caught off guard for the entire round. At best an intiative roll would need to be made to attempt a meager parry.
    Servant of the Most High,
    Lawgiver

    Isaiah 1:17
    Learn to do good; Seek justice, Rebuke the oppressor; Defend the fatherless, Plead for the widow.

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    Lawgiver, I dont see your point, using your sneak attack ability should not be considered abusive, even if your able to use it more then once in a fight. and remember certain conditions need to exist even to use the ability.
    Lord Shaene Conlynd
    Regent - United Provinces of Haelyn

  10. #10
    Senior Member Lawgiver's Avatar
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    Fair, heroic, and honorable are are three very different things

    To me abusive is when the first thing out of a theif player's mouth is "I want to sneak attack the guy", before you even finish describing the situation, or when they try for sneak attacks in the most absurd situations when such an action would be all but impossible. There comes a point when rules regardless of the accuracy defeats the purpose and fun in roleplaying.
    Servant of the Most High,
    Lawgiver

    Isaiah 1:17
    Learn to do good; Seek justice, Rebuke the oppressor; Defend the fatherless, Plead for the widow.

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