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  1. #1
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    Here's another one I'd like to put up for discussion.

    I've always though the economic model for 3rd edition is completely whacked (that means it doesn't make sense if you're not up on my midwestern slang...). I could go on about how supply and demand would drive down the cost of things like healing potions (hello, level 1 priests can make them), and how since the creatures in D&D explode like piñatas full of gold and magical items, there would not only be a really skewed distribution of wealth, but the creatures would buy out the humans (they're rich&#33. Plus rarity becomes silly as an excuse for high price when most monsters explode into a shower of magical items when they die.

    BUT, I have learned to ignore all that. Here's my question, part 1: How do you handle it when your humble party of a regent and her retinue (with 1st level chart equipment, plus an heirloom or two) want to visit ye olde adventurer's mart with some gold bars and want +1 plate mail on the house. To be more direct, I wonder what you are doing to control the fact that regents can become rich quickly, and the high prices of 3rd edition items aren't much of a deterrent to regents with nice treasuries.

    What we've decided to do is make a clear distinction between personal and realm wealth, and since we're mostly good aligned, they honor that. I gave the PCs an inheritance of about 3 GB and after that they have to earn it. We also have a slush fund, so when anything in the treasury is less than a 1/10 (say a 1/12 GB is left over) it goes into the slush fund.

    Part 2 -- This works pretty well, except they still want to go down to any old guild and order up all magical equipment and enough potions of healing to make a fountain. We've decided to limit availability of items based on the level and location of the guild, and I like to point at Endier (which is FAR away from us, thankfully) as where you need to go to inquire about stuff. I'm also thinking of limiting availability to +1 in a shop, maybe +2.

    Thoughts?
    Carpe DM

  2. #2
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    All of those suggesting will owrk.

    Something to express to your players is that a GB is not a bar of gold, it is an abstract unit of goods. The BRCS (see Chapt 8 what is a GB?) talks about how it's composition can change over time (i.e., seasons) and location, but that it generally is a reflection of buying (or trading) power.

    In 2nd ed a regent had to convert a GB into gp before he could spend them on personal stuff.

    To limit the accessability of magic items try increasing their cost. Chap 8 of the BRCS suggested upping them by 30%, but the Complete Warrior book suggests for a 'low magic item world' to up them by 100 - 300%.

    A level 1 cleric cannot make a potion of healing (3.5 terms) it requires a 3rd level caster now - and the process for making magic items is a whole lot clearer than it was in 2nd ed. In 2nd ed it was never really clear how priests could make magic items and yet they did.

    Also just because a regent can afford a magic item doesn't mean that there any available. There are fewer spellcasters in BR than in say Forgotten Realms so the availability of items should be rarer. Also in 3/3.5 it costs xp to make magic items so the fewer spellcasters are probably not goig to spend their hard earned xp in order to create items jsut because. Now if the regent wants to barter with the local wizard in exchange for protection and money that is another story.

    I have noticed that most creatures in 3/3.5 don't have a lot of treasure. In our 3.5, non-BR camapaign our DM uses the optional training rules from the DMG but had to drop the cost to sp instead of gp or else his economy was going to be ruined. Also the party wasn't finding enough treasure to pay for leveling up. Most random encounters, unless they are bandits, have very little treasure associated with them. The treasure is usually in the creatures lair.

    There are optional rules in the BRCS (again see Chap 8) for starting money for scions. This money can be used to purchase initial equipment, including magic items. But the scion had to take an ECL'd template in order to gain them, in the revised Chap 2 it would be at least a level of scion class.

    Heck nothing says there has to be any magic shops around. In fact I wouldn't include them in any campaign I would run. They are just too convenient. I would have the PCs have to find someone in particular and work up deals in order to get things, or better yet have the party spellcasters have to create the items themselves. My 13 yr old son is playing a wizard in our 3.5 campaign and is constantly looking over how to create magic items. He has made a few potions, scrolls and even some emerald caltrops (from the Arms and Equipment Guide) so he has been using his feat selection in order to build his character to that end. He is becoming a real player here, he just has to work on his role-playing and he wil be tremendous.
    Duane Eggert

  3. #3
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    > camelotcrusade wrote:

    > Here's my question, part 1: How do you handle it when your humble

    > party of a regent and her retinue (with 1st level chart equipment,

    > plus an heirloom or two) want to visit ye olde adventurer's mart

    > with some gold bars and want +1 plate mail on the house. To be more

    > direct, I wonder what

    > you are doing to control the fact that regents can become rich quickly,

    > and the high prices of 3rd edition items aren't much of a deterrent

    > to regents with nice treasuries.What we've decided to do is make a

    > clear distinction between personal and realm wealth, and since

    > we're mostly good aligned, they honor that. I gave the PCs an

    > inheritance of about 3 GB and after that they have to earn it. We also

    > have a slush fund, so when anything in the treasury is less than a 1/10

    > (say a 1/12 GB is left over) it goes into the slush fund.

    >

    > Part 2 -- This

    > works pretty well, except they still want to go down to any old guild

    > and order up all magical equipment and enough potions of healing to

    > make a fountain. We've decided to limit availability of items

    > based on the level and location of the guild, and I like to point at

    > Endier (which is FAR away from us, thankfully) as where you need to go

    > to inquire ab out stuff. I'm also thinking of limiting

    > availability to +1 in a shop, maybe +2.Thoughts?



    Guilds don`t sell magical items, they sell wool and cabbage. Most priests

    in temples are not clerics, they`re experts or aristocrats, and cannot

    make potions. Wizards in Birthright have better things to do than make

    magical items to order. There are no magical item shops, period, in my

    Birthright games. Ever.



    Hiring a wizard to make a magical item for you should be a quest in

    itself, you have to find one who is both mercenary enough to do it, and

    trustworthy enough to actually deliver. And you`ll be on his home

    terrain, near his tower or holding and all his sources, so what are you

    going to do if he stiffs you?

    --

    Daniel McSorley

  4. #4
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    Thanks for all the good suggestions.

    I suppose I'm more of a PC rgp gamer, in which magic shops are a facet of every game out there. I also envy how games make villains walk away in cut-scenes and nobody can argue and have it do any good.

    My remark about the potion was a bit off, but I really meant to say I think any society would recognize the value of magical healing (healhcare is a huge issue for any nation) and work to widen its availability and possibly even subsidize its cost. I also don't think anybody important would seriously sit around healing by bedrest after taking a nasty slash, when a potion is such an elegant solution. Simply knowing that the potion exists, even if it's hard to access, creates an incredible demand in times of need. Supply is not fixed by any means, and at present I'm not aware of any set level imposed by the church or the government on cure light wounds potions, though it could be in some societies. In the absence of these constraints I think the equilibrium price would be a lot different than what it is in DND, which tends to use a monopoloy model as far as I can tell.. one price, where to get it us up to the DM. Instead I think it would really turn out to be tons of prices, varying quality (e.g., caster level), and plenty of supply. It's not like its illegal drugs (which still have all those factors, albeit a higher price).

    I know it's the logic and D&D only mix so well scenario, but I still have hard time applying a blanket availability/non-availability to magic since I think supply and demand would all but force enough supply to be created to make the price hit equlibrium. Instead of the neighboorhood defribulator it's the neighborhood wand of cure light wounds with 50 charges. When it comes to hopitals as centers of magical healing, Cerilia makes it even easier for me to grasp, since battle magic is already a known concept and they are already thinking on a grand scale. Cure unit could as easily cure a hospital of sick and wounded folk, and who's to say those wily Cerilians wouldn't be quick to invet mass-produced alchemy along those same lines? Just put some clerics in a room with some glass bottles, hang up some orcs for them to beat when their xp gets low, and McPotion is born. Well, maybe not quite, but you have to admit there are enough people with 18 intelligence in the world to think of the idea, and plenty more who would try it anyway. I just think its easy to attack the 3E economic model as it is to defend it. Just put people in it and would all go to hell in handbasket. Our job as DM then, is to make sure it doesn't. B)

    I've already opened the door for +1 availabily to my PCs, so I think I will keep it open. 3E may be a little better balanced in that regard, but I think if you don't keep your treasure up with your monsters you run into problems. The CR assumes a party of adequately equipped adventurers when it comes to damage reduction and other nasty effects they can cause to the party.

    Well, thanks for reading my random musings on economy. I'm sure nobody agrees, but if anybody does, chime in too. Forums aren't just about taking beatings, right?
    Carpe DM

  5. #5
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    Hmm. I see what you're all saying, LOW magic. Well what if I wanted to run a normal level magic campaign in Cerilia? I suppose those are the suggestions I need, since my PCs just finished a low-magic campaign and we're all ready for a change. The Ravenloft place I played was low-magic to the point of witch hunts and the darklord's "horde" was about 3 items... that's the supreme rulers had about 3 items. We used sticks cut from trees and farm tools to start out. It was fun. The lack and relatively powerlessness of priests in the setting also made it easier.

    I don't really undrstand why most clerics aren't priests, either. Why the heck not, begs the questions, wouldn't you become one if you spend your whole life in a temple and can do it (if barely) with anything over 10 wisdom, and average stat? I'm sure the 99% non-priests enjoy seeing mystic powers emanate from other clergy who as just as capable as they are. Divine magic is the easiest to sieze in DnD. Join priesthood, get faith, become cleric.

    I suppose you could say only the true 100% believers get the spells, to separate out the rest, but then again, what better to motivate faith than a true manifestation of powers, and gods who can truly impact your life with a whim?
    Carpe DM

  6. #6
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    irdeggman schrieb:



    >This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

    > You can view the entire thread at:

    > http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...=ST&f=2&t=2240

    >

    > irdeggman wrote:

    >...

    >



    >Something to express to your players is that a GB is not a bar of gold, it is an abstract unit of goods. The BRCS (see Chapt 8 what is a GB?) talks about how it`s composition can change over time (i.e., seasons) and location, but that it generally is a reflection of buying (or trading) power.

    >In 2nd ed a regent had to convert a GB into gp before he could spend them on personal stuff.

    >

    And regents were limited in how much they could convert from personal

    treasury to realm treasury and back each domain turn, only regents that

    controlled guild holdings could convert more.



    > To limit the accessability of magic items try increasing their cost. Chap 8 of the BRCS suggested upping them by 30%, but the Complete Warrior book suggests for a `low magic item world` to up them by 100 - 300%.

    >

    >

    The Arms&Equipment Guide gives a table of Commodity Demand which ranges

    from -20% cost (oversupplied, always available) to +100% (desperate,

    black market) with "sought, Almost always available +20% IMO the fitting

    value for low-level magic items as potions or scrolls. But high-level

    items or multiple use items as Wands, should if they are buyable at all

    fall into the desperate category. However I do not like the idea that

    ALL magic is scarce in Cerilia - after all while we have only few true

    wizards, we have Magicians who can produce certain items as well.



    > Also just because a regent can afford a magic item doesn`t mean that there any available. There are fewer spellcasters in BR than in say Forgotten Realms so the availability of items should be rarer. Also in 3/3.5 it costs xp to make magic items so the fewer spellcasters are probably not goig to spend their hard earned xp in order to create items jsut because. Now if the regent wants to barter with the local wizard in exchange for protection and money that is another story.

    >

    And don´t forget to say that a higher market value does not only mean a

    higher price in gold, but also that the creator of the item has to spend

    more XP while creating it, as the XP cost is derived from the market cost.

    bye

    Michael

  7. #7
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    > I`ve already opened the door for +1 availabily to my PCs, so I think I

    > will keep it open. 3E may be a little better balanced in that regard,

    > but I think if you don`t keep your treasure up with your monsters you

    > run into problems. The CR assumes a party of adequately equipped

    > adventurers when it comes to damage reduction and other nasty effects

    > they can cause to the party.



    This is one of the reasons I feel we need a Birthright d20 rather than a

    simple 3e conversion... An alternate rulebook with its own magic rules,

    challenge rating system, etc.



    > Well, thanks for reading my random musings on economy. I`m sure

    > nobody agrees, but if anybody does, chime in too. Forums aren`t just

    > about taking beatings, right?



    One thing I`ve been considering is to treat heretary items like the

    samurai swords for oriental adventures, where you can just add abilities

    to it as you level up. I`d consider this just an extension of one`s

    blood abilities.



    (I don`t have non-scions in my campaigns. I give players no incentive

    to do so. The game just is so much easier when you have the blood of

    the gods flowing through your veins...)



    --Lord Rahvin
    NOTE: Messages posted by Birthright-L are automatically inserted posts originating from the mailing list linked to the forum.

  8. #8
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    >

    > I don`t really undrstand why most clerics aren`t priests, either. Why

    > the heck not, begs the questions, wouldn`t you become one if you spend

    > your whole life in a temple and can do it (if barely) with anything

    > over 10 wisdom, and average stat? I`m sure the 99% non-priests enjoy

    > seeing mystic powers emanate from other clergy who as just as capable

    > as they are. Divine magic is the easiest to sieze in DnD. Join

    > priesthood, get faith, become cleric.

    >

    > I suppose you could say only the true 100% believers get the spells,

    > to separate out the rest, but then again, what better to motivate faith

    > than a true manifestation of powers, and gods who can truly impact your

    > life with a whim?



    In my campaign, I`ve required clerics to have a divine bloodline in

    order to channel divine spells in the usual manner. In fact, I require

    all spellcasters to have a bloodline. The strength of the bloodline

    determines a cap on your max level. (Tainted - 3rd, Minor - 5th, Major

    - 7th, Great - 9th.) Occasionally, one of the faithful may be granted a

    sort of virtual bloodline but that`s a whole seperate system no one

    here`s gonna like... Bloodlines of the New Gods... (I`m also thinking

    of adding Arcane Bloodlines... But I haven`t decided yet.)



    --Lord Rahvin
    NOTE: Messages posted by Birthright-L are automatically inserted posts originating from the mailing list linked to the forum.

  9. #9
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    Thanks for all your ideas. It's a pleasure to post here, because even if I say things like "the econ system is screwy!" and "potions for everyone!" I can get well-thought out replies and don't automatically get put on the roaster. Are you guys sure you know how public forums work?

    Here are some rules for you, enjoy:

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    How many forum members does it takes to change a light bulb?


    1 to change the light bulb and to post that the light bulb has been changed
    14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently
    7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs
    1 to move it to the Lighting section
    2 to argue then move it to the Electricals section
    7 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs
    5 to flame the spell checkers
    3 to correct spelling/grammar flames
    6 to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb" ... another 6 to condemn those 6 as stupid
    2 industry professionals to inform the group that the proper term is "lamp"
    15 know-it-alls who claim they were in the industry, and that "light bulb" is perfectly correct
    19 to post that this forum is not about light bulbs and to please take this discussion to a lightbulb forum
    11 to defend the posting to this forum saying that we all use light bulbs and therefore the posts are relevant to this forum
    36 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique and what brands are faulty
    7 to post URL's where one can see examples of different light bulbs
    4 to post that the URL's were posted incorrectly and then post the corrected URL's
    3 to post about links they found from the URL's that are relevant to this group which makes light bulbs relevant to this group
    13 to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety including all headers and signatures, and add "Me too"
    5 to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy
    4 to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago?"
    13 to say "do a Google search on light bulbs before posting questions about light bulbs"
    1 forum lurker to respond to the original post 6 months from now and start it all over again.
    Carpe DM

  10. #10
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    > camelotcrusade wrote:

    > Hmm. I see what you`re all saying, LOW magic. Well what if I wanted

    > to run a normal level magic campaign in Cerilia? I suppose those are

    > the suggestions I need, since my PCs just finished a low-magic

    > campaign and we`re all ready for a change. The Ravenloft place I

    > played was low-magic to the point of witch hunts and the darklord`s

    > "horde" was about 3 items... that`s the supreme rulers had

    > about 3 items. We used sticks cut from trees and farm tools to start

    > out. It was fun. The lack and relatively powerlessness of priests in

    > the setting also made it easier.



    If you wanted to run a normal-level magic campaign in BR, I don`t think

    you`d need any special rules at all. There are rules in the DMG for the

    gp value of magical items that can be found in any locale. Decide the

    population of the cities your PCs have access to, and look them up on the

    chart.



    > I don`t really undrstand why most clerics aren`t priests, either. Why

    > the heck not, begs the questions, wouldn`t you become one if you spend

    > your whole life in a temple and can do it (if barely) with anything

    > over 10 wisdom, and average stat? I`m sure the 99% non-priests enjoy

    > seeing mystic powers emanate from other clergy who as just as capable

    > as they are. Divine magic is the easiest to sieze in DnD. Join

    > priesthood, get faith, become cleric.



    Most people in real churches weren`t priests; scribes and nuns and

    whatnot. Most priests weren`t all that faithful. And in fantasy worlds,

    spells of the types associated with clerics are granted to adventurers and

    crusaders, not the ministers of the flock. They might get some healing

    spells, but non-adventuring clerics don`t cast many spells.



    Ruleswise, if they`re parish priests, they don`t gain XP fast anyway, so

    they`ll never progress past 1st level spells, even if they were classed as

    clerics.



    > I suppose you could say only the true 100% believers get the spells, to

    > separate out the rest, but then again, what better to motivate faith

    > than a true manifestation of powers, and gods who can truly impact your

    > life with a whim?



    It`s not just belief that gets them the spell, it`s active forwarding of

    the deity`s goals and teachings, through action. Adventurers get spells

    because they need them. So do crusading types. The priest of the hamlet

    might get a cure light wounds once in a while, but a much more useful

    skill to him is to officiate at weddings, funerals, mediate disputes, and

    write sermons.



    I don`t just do this in BR, by the way, priests in any setting I run are

    like this.



    --

    Daniel McSorley

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