The Noble class

[Birthright-L]

From: "Azrai" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>

> IMO feats are not special enough to "define" a class.
> In principal you could have the same fun if taking a fighter
> with some rogue levels. One needs some special abilities
> to give the class a typical flair.
>

I disagree. A generals is also a class. Actually, that is what I`m missing
most in DnD - a generalist class that can fill out for the Expert, but is
PC-worthy.

Here is an attempt I made at such a class for an entirely different setting,
Dragonstar: http://hastur.net/dragonstar/wiki/ImperialProdigy

/Carl



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[amertes]

I think what gives a character 'flair' is how they create and role-play their characters. Afterall, what is a fighter but a character with a lot of combat feats? I think what gives the noble 'flair' is his combination of 'social' skills and ability to rule effectively, or help someone else rule effectively.

[Azrai]

Afterall, what is a fighter but a character with a lot of combat feats? I think what gives the noble 'flair' is his combination of 'social' skills and ability to rule effectively, or help someone else rule effectively.

This is exactly what I meant. The number of feats or skills won't define the character class.

[Dantain]

Using the D20 Character Class Engine, the Noble comes out at 220 (broken down as follows):
30 for Hit Die (d8)
15 for all martial weapons
35 on armor(10 for light, 10 for medium, 10 for heavy, 5 for shields)
45 for 6+Int skill points
20 for class skills (excluded new skills as the creators of the class egine did not include those in their calculations, counted knowledge skills (any) as one skill, if raised to three, increase total cost for class skills by 5)
15 for saves (willful as Wizard/Sorcerer)
30 for attack (lesser)
30 for feats (6 general feats 5/feat)
---
220-225 average for PC classes is 250, low is Sorcerer at 215
Adding in Bardic Lore increases it to 230-235
Adding in Bardic Music increases the base to 240-245
Uping attack to Good increases the cost from 30-50 and ups total to 240-245

As a sidenote about the Noble class:
The starting package lists Weapon Focus as a feat, the Noble doesn't qualify for this of due to Base Attack Bonus (clerics are allowed to bypass it for the War domain).

[ConjurerDragon]

Dantain wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1366
>
> Dantain wrote:
> Using the D20 Character Class Engine, the Noble comes out at 220 (broken down as follows):
>30 for Hit Die (d8)
>15 for all martial weapons
>
Is this number valid for the normal ALL martial weapons, or for the as I
understood "regional" martial weapon proficiency which means only e.g.
for an Anuirean Noble only weapons of the region?

>35 on armor(10 for light, 10 for medium, 10 for heavy, 5 for shields)
>
10 for each armour proficiency? The nobles of different regions
certainly do not bother to gain proficiency by wearing all
kinds of armour like a fighter. I could for example see a Brecht Guild
Lord never using heavy, or an Anuirean Knight never using light armour
and thus having 10 more points to spend on things more important to a
noble regent.

>45 for 6+Int skill points
>20 for class skills (excluded new skills as the creators of the class egine did not include those in their calculations, counted knowledge skills (any) as one skill, if raised to three, increase total cost for class skills by 5)
>15 for saves (willful as Wizard/Sorcerer)
>30 for attack (lesser)
>30 for feats (6 general feats 5/feat)
>
So with the 10 saved from armour he could take 2 more feats? Then give
him Leadership as fixed feat as the Noble of Kenneth has and another
feat with the restriction to take only rule-enhancing feats (e.g. Regent
Focus...)

>---
>220-225 average for PC classes is 250, low is Sorcerer at 215
>Adding in Bardic Lore increases it to 230-235
>
I can see the Noble knowing a lot about ruling, a lot about laws and
noble titles - knowledge skills.
However Bardic Knowledge? The Noble normally does not adventure most of
his time and does not travel the world to hear storys and songs in inns
and bardic colleges. I do not like the idea to add this to the Noble.

>Adding in Bardic Music increases the base to 240-245
>
? No, please not Bardic Music to anyone besides the Bard.

>Uping attack to Good increases the cost from 30-50 and ups total to 240-245
>
As the noble spends less time fighting than the fighter, he should not
fight as good. Let it stay as it is.

>As a sidenote about the Noble class:
>The starting package lists Weapon Focus as a feat, the Noble doesn`t qualify for this of due to Base Attack Bonus (clerics are allowed to bypass it for the War domain).
>
At least not at first level. Later he easily can take Weapon Focus.

So with removing one of three armour proficiencys (-10) and by bringing
him up to the average you listed as 250 the noble could get another 35
points to spend (more if the reduced martial weapon proficiency counts
for something) on feats?
bye
Michael Romes

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[DanMcSorley]

On Fri, 28 Feb 2003, Michael Romes wrote:
> So with removing one of three armour proficiencys (-10) and by bringing
> him up to the average you listed as 250 the noble could get another 35
> points to spend (more if the reduced martial weapon proficiency counts
> for something) on feats?

Do you have Brecht fighters give up heavy armor prof in exchange for
another feat? This kind of min-max swapping isn`t desireably for a
class-based game like 3e. If the game were pointbased, you might have
something there, but it`s not.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Azrai]

Originally posted by DanMcSorley
Do you have Brecht fighters give up heavy armor prof in exchange for
another feat? This kind of min-max swapping isn`t desireably for a
class-based game like 3e. If the game were pointbased, you might have
something there, but it`s not.

I disagree. Of course this min-max stuff does sometimes not fit, but here it is not such a bad way.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 10:58 AM


> However Bardic Knowledge? The Noble normally does not adventure most of
> his time and does not travel the world to hear storys and songs in inns
> and bardic colleges. I do not like the idea to add this to the Noble.

I don`t think Dantain literally means Bardic Knowledge, I think this is a
reference to the mechanic first seen for bards, then for loremasters,
courtiers, and several other classes. Give the skill a different name, and
limit its application in the description to apply to any and all of the
things that could be described in the broadest definition of Knowledge
(Nobility and Royalty). The noble might recognize an obscure coat of arms,
recognize a noble he`s never seen by sight (by description), know the
intrigues of a certain court officer, recognize the ancient sword of the
king of Halskappa, and so forth. A noble with access to this kind of
mechanic should not be an expert in things remote from the noble body of
knowledge. Recognizing independent wizards, the use of a religious relic,
the intrigues of a crime boss, or the history of a famed merchant vessel are
all beyond what a noble`s knowledge mechanic would know. For instance, I
would require the mechanic use the Knowledge (Nobility) skill rather than
just level, and to adjust DC`s five higher (accounting for the fact that a
maxed out skill rank can be 3 higher than level, and skill focus can be
taken). One of the other effects of such a change is to give actual bards a
slight edge in many of the same tasks, as it probabaly should be.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "daniel mcsorley" <mcsorley@CIS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 11:50 AM


addressing Michael Romes
> Do you have Brecht fighters give up heavy armor prof in exchange for
> another feat? This kind of min-max swapping isn`t desireably for a
> class-based game like 3e. If the game were pointbased, you might have
> something there, but it`s not.

IMC, I allow Brecht fighters to swap Heavy Armor Proficency for Expertice
instead. I do have Brecht nobility value the heavy armor as a special skill
of the mostly knightly members of their caste, but most Brecht are not
impressed.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Elrostar]

On the question of whether or not to allow nobles (or fighters) to choose between taking armour proficiency or some other feat:
You can't take heavy armour without medium. And you can't take medium without heavy. It's somewhat silly to assume that because a noble knight tends to wear plate or chain that he's not adept at wearing lighter armour? That's (presumably) the reasoning behind having the lighter armour profs as prereqs for the heavier ones.

If we were going to make this a point based system, then it makes a lot of sense to break everything down like this. But d20 is not pointbased, unless one uses the Mutants & Masterminds rules, which I've generally heard very good things about, although I don't know well it adapts to a fantasy setting with magic use etc.

I guess what I feel is that the fighter is the consumate warrior. If he wants to choose to emphasise lighter armour and fighting styles, then there are prestige classes for that. But it strikes me as odd that a fighter wouldn't be proficient in any normal type of armour. Especially if they're possibly knights. Even Brecht knights go for heavy armour. It kind of comes in handy, really...

I think it's logical to give Nobles proficiency with all armour as well, if they're going to be somewhat warrior-like nobles. The class in WoT has proficiency with all martial weapons and all armour, which seems to make perfect sense to me. My only gripe with that class is that one of the main features of it is the ability to call in favours, gaining one every two levels. I'd prefer it if things like that were roleplayed out, and so I'd want to replace that benefit with something like better skill points, or (as people have suggested) some sort of class ability reflecting their being steeped in knowledge of royalty or nobility (although that could perhaps be managed by simply giving them a skill focus feat in that as a starting character?).

Anyway, enough from me for now. Just wanted to throw in a couple cents...

Elrostar