Need some help brainstorming on Diemed.

[Perhelion]

Sorry about not being clear... the names I gave were those of the closest present-day realms. Ghoere would probably have been a barony vassalised to the Duke of (whatever). If sinister reputations are hereditary, the then Baron of Ghoere might have had a hand in the deposition of the Duke.
One of these days I might write (mostly for myself) a history of Anuire along those lines. Nonetheless it would be interesting to compare with what the rest of the community came up with.

[kgauck]

I believe at one time Carrie Bebris gave us the original 12 duchies as:
Avanil, Boeruine, Alamie, Ghieste, Dhalaene, Mhoried, Diemed, Arenwe,
Elinie, Osoerde, Taeghas, and Cariele.

If this isn`t the list that is most current, someone will say so.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Birthright-L]

On Wed, 18 Sep 2002, Perhelion wrote:
> Sorry about not being clear... the names I gave were those of the
> closest present-day realms. Ghoere would probably have been a barony
> vassalised to the Duke of (whatever). If sinister reputations are
> hereditary, the then Baron of Ghoere might have had a hand in the
> deposition of the Duke.

Gavin Tael has Long Life. He probably started out as a Baron of some
small area, but he now rules two former duchies, and I`d say he carved it
all out himself.
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[Birthright-L]

On Wed, 18 Sep 2002, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> I believe at one time Carrie Bebris gave us the original 12 duchies as:
> Avanil, Boeruine, Alamie, Ghieste, Dhalaene, Mhoried, Diemed, Arenwe,
> Elinie, Osoerde, Taeghas, and Cariele.

That looks right. That leaves, um, Brosengae, Talinie, Dhoesone,
Coeranys, and Mieres as original non-duchy Anuirean lands. Oh, and I like
to include that island, Suiriene. FAQ the sucker and put it away :)
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[Birthright-L]

Isn`t the ruler of Brosengae a Dke/Duchess in the RoE? And Taeghas is a
County, I think. I don`t think we can really rely on the 2e materials to
answer this question, since there are many, many inconsistencies about
this subject.

Here`s my list of the 12:

Avanil (principality), Alamie (arch), Mhoried, Ghieste, Dhalane, Diemed,
Aerenwe, Brosengae (includes present day Taeghas, which broke away),
Boeruine (arch), Osoerde, Elinie, Coeranys or Talinie.

Cariele and either Coeranys or Talinie, plus Mieres, Suirene, and
Dhoesone were colonies or other kingdoms that didn`t have full rights in
the Empire.

Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> I believe at one time Carrie Bebris gave us the original 12 duchies as:
> Avanil, Boeruine, Alamie, Ghieste, Dhalaene, Mhoried, Diemed, Arenwe,
> Elinie, Osoerde, Taeghas, and Cariele.
>
> If this isn`t the list that is most current, someone will say so.

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[Birthright-L]

In this case I usually just ignore what Ruins of
Empire says on the matter and make Diem a duke.


--- Atari Kid <atarikid@CHARTER.NET> wrote:
> My biggest concern is explaining why the current
> ruler Hierl Diem, is a
> Baron by title, when he is a direct descendant of
> the original Duke of
> Diemed as appointed by the first emperor of Anuire.
> Diemed was at one
> point the largest of the 12 imperial duchies so it
> stands to reason the
> ruling family was indeed a duchal family by title.


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[Trithemius]

Yay!
This is one of my favourite arguments about BR.

My personal list of the Twelve Archduchies is this:
01. Aerenwe - currently a "Kingdom"
02. Alamie - still an Archduchy
03. Avanil - currently a "Principality"
04. Boeruine - still an Archduchy
05. Brosengae - still an Archduchy
06. Cariele - currently a "County" or a "Barony"
07. Dhalaene - subsumed into the Grand Duchy of Ghoere
08. Diemed - still an Archduchy (sorry Anakin ;))
09. Elinie - overun by foreigners, currently a "Duchy"
10. Ghieste - subsumed into the Grand Duchy of Ghoere
11. Mhoried - still an Archduchy
12. Osoerde - still an Archduchy, despite Raenech`s usurpation

I personally see Taeghas, Talinie, Coeranys and Dhoesone as being
"march-counties" (to adopt the more traditional title hierarchy). To my
mind Archduchies were a special title appiled to the closest and most
important vassals of the Emperor at the founding of the Empire. Later
territories could be ruled by Dukes (such as those carved out in
Brechtur and the Basarji lands) but there were only ever the twelve
Archdukes. This would serve to mitigate some of the effects of the
"title-inflation" that no doubt occurred as the Empire expanded.

--
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(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
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[Magian]

>From: John Machin <trithemius@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
>I personally see Taeghas, Talinie, Coeranys and Dhoesone as being
>"march-counties" (to adopt the more traditional title hierarchy).

Yes I also see this for the respective realms.
I give Baron the Anuirean style and Thane as the Old Boru style. I do think
the Margrave (old Boru) title fits here best but of course your language
preference could differ for the marchlands.


>To my
>mind Archduchies were a special title appiled to the closest and most
>important vassals of the Emperor at the founding of the Empire.

I think the style of Archduke is an old Boru tradition of naming a prince
who is not the direct decendant of the king/emperor and is equal rank to a
royal prince title. By choice the house of Boeruine continues to the
present date leaving a distinction from the anuirean style system. A
similar point is the Mora king title is Mhor which is equivlalent to duke in
Anuirean rank system. My interpretation of course I yield to your judgement
in your own campaigns on this.

To me the house of Boru is the second house of Andu allow for the
distinction of Archduke from such ancient ties. This distinguishes the
title Archduke from that of Duke as a higher ranked title not just by honor
or prestige. This also give claim that they are of royal blood. If you
interpret the title Archduke according to my Anuirean system of rank and
styles it translates to Royal Prince which is above Furst (Avan). The
disctinction of Archduke from Royal Prince is that of direct decendant. A
Royal Prince could be a direct decendant and Archduke never could be unless
the claim falls upon him after a line dies.

As far as the other duchies of the empire they are simply duchies of
nobility without royal ties. This includes the House of Avan which now
claims the princely title of prince not the royal title.

Marriages are another discussion that would tie into the argument of who is
the rightful heir so I do not see it fitting into this line of argument.



>Later
>territories could be ruled by Dukes (such as those carved out in
>Brechtur and the Basarji lands) but there were only ever the twelve
>Archdukes. This would serve to mitigate some of the effects of the
>"title-inflation" that no doubt occurred as the Empire expanded.

From my understanding the other carved territories were principalites, this
is open of course to our own interpretations. Some could have been ruled by
dukes. However if a principality is dilineated the regent assumes this
title. In my system only a royal prince can claim a royal title. A duke
could become regent over a principality and become a prince of a princely
title but not royal as in the case of Avan.

As far as title inflation the only place I really can see this is in the
cases of temples, wizards, and Sendoure. This is also up to interpretation.

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