The mystery and wonder that is the Cerilian elf

[ryancaveney]

I clearly disagree with Ryan regarding the prevalence of magic, or more accurately, his industrial use of it.

I may have given the wrong impression, since "industrial" in the modern sense really isn't what I meant. All I meant to say was that any time they do anything which in other species would involve unpleasant or dangerous labor and building devices which help despoil the landscape, elves do it with magic instead and leave no trace.

To me to create such a system requires a mass demand for products and I simply don't see the demand. I see the elves as making artifacts when the artifacts are needed, but not otherwise.

I don't think demand is all that important, unless you are positing a true mercantile system. I think it is a supply-driven "economy", in which people make whatever they feel like, whether or not it will ever be of any use to anyone else. There may be a guy who really likes making magic swords, even though none of his friends and neighbors need them, so he has a pile of several hundred of them under a tree somewhere. The same thing could work for pottery, clothing, or any other handicraft -- they are practiced as hobbies irrespective of demand; then whenever a demand does appear, the person who decides they want something starts by asking around whether anyone has some samples handy that they aren't using anymore.

Also I see elves as spirits of air/water, not of earth/fire (the latter would be dwarves)

I don't like putting the dwarves on the same footing as the elves. Are they also inherently magical, immortal spirit creatures? Certainly not. Therefore, although dwarves do have a strong tie to elemental earth, I think there also needs to be a separate sidhe-equivalent guardian spirit power for earth and fire; it makes the most sense to me to decide that those spirits are also part of the Sidhelien. Also, the elves would be rather poor guardians of the trees if they weren't good at handling dirt and bending fire to their will -- and no tree would ever grow at all without nourishing soil and the burning of the sun. I think the Sidhelien work best as elemental spirits if all the elements are among them, as it takes all the elements together to make life.


Ryan

[kgauck]

Earth and Water would be the more natural plant elements, I think.

The question of supply and demand for craft production, magical or mundane is only relevant if changing these factors alters the cost of production. If the cost of making an item is the same whether you make 1 or 10 (or 1000), then it doesn't matter of there is demand for an item.

Modern economies are based on taking advantage of scale. Craft production has some scale, but by and large craft production is pure marginal cost (since fixed costs are either inherited or barriers to market entry), so again, demand is really only a macro-economic issue, not a micro-economic one.

[AndrewTall]

I am not making assumptions, I am basing it off what I have read in the books. ...

As am I of course

At the very least you are failing to make basic interpretations of the impact of the statements in PSoT, or to consider how they conflict with statements elsewhere; imo in imputing human motives to the elves you are making assumptions as much as I am by considering alternate motives.

They didn't war with goblins to defend their lands, they warred with them to conquer them. It doesn't say they misunderstood the dwarves, they wanted to conquer them. Or for some reason they misunderstood the dwarves for 14,000+ years before they signed a peace accord.

Again, a few lines from PSoT. Even if you ignore the canon descriptions of history of the other realms since they oppose the line from PSoT, think about the consequences of immortality and low birthrate to elves - war for conquest invites casualties far more so than other conflicts - why have the elves not driven themselves to extinction through their aggression? The elves are fewer then they were but a long way from extinct. At best you can say 'they did war for conquest millennia ago but stopped now' - but that needs a fairly fundamental shift in racial mindset. Please explain why the elves haven't warred for conquest at any other recorded time? Why they don't do so now, and by realm write-ups elsewhere have not done so for centuries at least? Why their far more numerous neighbours haven't united to eliminate the elven threat? How do you explain their distaste for battlemagics if they desire power? Interpreting the lines in the PSoT timeline as a human assumption of motivations for early conflict avoids breaking many aspects of canon elsewhere.

I use the PSoTh and the Dragon Magazine article because those are the only two articles dealing with it. Again, you are saying canon doesn't count because you say it doesn't and back it up with....?

I am saying that those lines of canon are inconsistent with all other parts - do you really want me to point out every reference to elven immortality, low birth rate, dislike of battle magic, use of warding to shun the outside world, etc, etc? By all means explain how these are consistent with the elements of the timeline you seem to cherish so dearly, I would welcome an argument from you beyond blind repetition of some lines I discredited in my first post.

The reason for no guild holdings is they don't need to trade. They don't need to trade with village A for fur because Village B has a surplus of apples, their just is no need.

Hmm, your argument as I understand it was that elves share human interests in making and retaining wealth and possessions - if elves did have these interests they would have guild holdings as guild holdings reflect precisely that impulse.

PSoT which elsewhere you seem to hold as gospel says that Savanne holds the guilds as important in contrast to all previous rulers - that she is thinking of bringing in halflings to replace the human merchants - why would this be so if elves by nature covet wealth and are ambitious?

I would note that no need to trade assumes both that the elves mine and refine their own metal in order to be self sufficient within each economic unit, and that they do not specialise in crafts - the first undermines the canon on source levels, the second your belief in their mercantile interests since specialisation is key to economic success.

Not having guilds does not mean they don't have a heirarchy, it is a false correlation. It is like saying that people who are tall have large shoe sizes. Increasing someone's shoe size does not make them taller.

Hierarchy was a point you raised as I recall, to which I said that the concept of human feudalism does not fit the elven mindset as described in canon. Feudalism is based on a substantive wealth gap and low social mobility - medieval societies are not rich so to make a 'wealthy' class you need a much larger 'poor' class to support them. They also require acceptance of social order and obedience to command. I see far more in canon to support a society where those who are successful and strong are revered than one that is feudal.

Call their leaders lords, kings, etc by all means, but I would suggest that there is little correlation in terms of inheritance or social structure to the medieval human societies using the same terms (incidentally amongst the human nobility inheritance is of dominating import - such cannot be true of a once every three thousand year event).

I note that if you eliminate the peasantry in a feudal society as your other post indicates, then you are left with the situation I described of a relatively 'born equal' society where advancement is driven by ability not birth order.

Why would they need to create thousands of weapons? This more leans to the fact that the weapons he made were probably given to the elite or the noble because of the cost in making them.

You suggested that like humans elves are industrious and motivated by wealth. If elves are industrious and motivated by wealth they will work continually and trade the surplus, so Ghio would have made thousands of blades - and become vastly wealthy as a result (demand for magic weapons being limitless). As I see no substantial trade routes or guilds amongst the elves, I see any industry amongst the elves as being very small scale, and more akin to that of gentlemen artisans than proletariat.

Though the rain may not bother you, it is still nice to be covered from it. It is also more pleasing to the eye to eat with friends and family in a dining room than around a wood stump.

I am from an industrialised nation but enjoy a picnic or barbecue. If I wasn't harmed by vagaries of the weather, heat and cold, etc, then I would do so far more often - also I'd say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, an elf might well see it as more pleasant to eat fruits and the like perched amongst the branches of an oak than huddled in some cramped windless smelling hovel.

I note that since canon suggests against substantive stone working or lumbering for houses that would impact source levels, etc, the lack of need for houses is a very useful way of explaining canon - not a divergence from it.

It is how they clear land that differentiates them from other races. They don't disrupt the magical energies or ley lines. It is that simple.

And your explanation of the mechanic is:confused: What do elves do, or not do, that other races do? What do you say when your wizard regent says 'I rule up the province but build nice wooden houses that follow local leylines just like the elves - oh look, GB income and no source impact what logical argument do you make against them?

There are alot of things you like to throw away from canon when it conflicts with your view.

Really? I ignore a handful of lines from PSoT, you by contrast seem to ignore chunks of every elven realm history write up, immortality, low birthrate, lack of elven expansion, guild levels, comments on low law levels, comments on spirituality, lack of interest in evocation magic etc, etc, etc. That said by all means ignore the bulk of canon on elves if you wish - or fail to consider the impact of it to the same end - but I would suggest that by examining its inconsistencies you may find a far richer elven society emerges.

I read canon material and make assumptions based on what we are told. You disregard canon material and make assumptions based on what you think.

You are basically disregarding all of canon to place the Sidhe as you would want them to be.

I could make at least equally valid points of you and your support of PSoT above other books - I would hold PSoT as lesser as it was written by freelancers/bungee writers who have, as far as I can see, no other BR credits.

May I suggest you explain why you even want elves to be conquerers? Why you want them to be mercantile? In what way do these changes - and they would require major changes to elven realms - enrich your game?

Saying that the canon I quote is just re-inforcing "elves as pointy eared humans" is similar to politicians spouting catch phrases with no meat.

No, it is the logical outcome of your arguments thus far. The reason I said 'pointy eared humans' is because by making elves have the same culture and lifestyle as humans - as you seem insistent upon doing - that is exactly what they become. I would suggest that by having elves as a distinctly different culture and race you will enrich your gaming experience - but by all means ignore me - its your game too.

[AndrewTall]

I don't like putting the dwarves on the same footing as the elves. Are they also inherently magical, immortal spirit creatures?

To a degree they would appear to be with dense bodies and the ability to subsist on dirt and the frequent comments on smithcraft indicate ties to fire. It would shift canon (and therefore clearly upset some) to make dwarves tied to earth and fire, but could be interesting and would differentiate them from humans more.

.... Also, the elves would be rather poor guardians of the trees if they weren't good at handling dirt and bending fire to their will -- and no tree would ever grow at all without nourishing soil and the burning of the sun. I think the Sidhelien work best as elemental spirits if all the elements are among them, as it takes all the elements together to make life.
Ryan

Water and air tend to be the elements of life in systems I've seen, with the earth and even sun simply 'being there' (however vital they are). The Chinese (?) element of wood perhaps being a good alternative to earth for such a system. I'd expect a spirit of earth to be less interested in 'ephemeral' growing things than one of water for example, and fire as destructive in the context of forests more than creative and so avoid these elements - although it depends how metaphorical you are getting. Elves could easily reflect fire as passion for example and could be spiritual in non elemental terms.

[Autarkis]

Autarkis, you seem to have written the same post three different ways. Could you perhaps clean it up a bit? Thanks.

It took three posts to respond to all of his posts, there were character limitations.

[ConjurerDragon]

AndrewTall schrieb:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3877
> AndrewTall wrote:
>
>
>
> ------------ QUOTE ----------
>
> They didn`t war with goblins to defend their lands, they warred with them to conquer them. It doesn`t say they misunderstood the dwarves, they wanted to conquer them. Or for some reason they misunderstood the dwarves for 14,000+ years before they signed a peace accord.
>
> -----------------------------
> Again, a few lines from PSoT. Even if you ignore the canon descriptions of history of the other realms since they oppose the line from PSoT, think about the consequences of immortality and low birthrate to elves - war for conquest invites casualties far more so than other conflicts - why have the elves not driven themselves to extinction through their aggression? The elves are fewer then they were but a long way from extinct. At best you can say `they did war for conquest millennia ago but stopped now` - but that needs a fairly fundamental shift in racial mindset. Please explain why the elves haven`t warred for conquest at any other recorded time? Why they don`t do so now, and by realm write-ups elsewhere have not done so for centuries at least? Why their far more numerous neighbours haven`t united to eliminate the elven threat? How do you explain their distaste for battlemagics if they desire power? Interpreting the lines in the PSoT timeline as a human assumption o!
> f motivations for early conflict avoids breaking many aspects of canon elsewhere.
>
The article with the Cerilian timeline in Dragon Magazine tells the same
story as the PSoT in that point. The sidhelien conquered the goblins
Why the sidhelien have not driven themselves to extinction? Because they
stopped acting as before?.
Uniting against the elves needs people willing and able to unite. That
may be possible in some games when players suddenly forget that their
realm fought for some hundred years against their human neighbour and
set aside rivalries to united against the sidhelien - but in a
consistent game it would take much to actually unite several human
realms against the sidhelien as long as they stay within their forests.

> ------------ QUOTE ----------
>
> I use the PSoTh and the Dragon Magazine article because those are the only two articles dealing with it. Again, you are saying canon doesn`t count because you say it doesn`t and back it up with....?
>
> -----------------------------
>
> I am saying that those lines of canon are inconsistent with all other parts - do you really want me to point out every reference to elven immortality, low birth rate, dislike of battle magic, use of warding to shun the outside world, etc, etc? By all means explain how these are consistent with the elements of the timeline you seem to cherish so dearly, I would welcome an argument from you beyond blind repetition of some lines I discredited in my first post.
>
Canon as I understand it is what exists as published material from
Wizards. Yes, sometimes it contradicts itself. But that does not mean it
could simply be said by anyone that it is no longer canon. How the
contradictions are explained is open to any DM?s interpretion. And the
whole 2E Atlas was written with "anuirean bias" or from the point of
view of an Anuirean sounds reasonable when considering that the given
author was the Chamberlain of Anuire.
> And your explanation of the mechanic is:confused: What do elves do, or not do, that other races do? What do you say when your wizard regent says `I rule up the province but build nice wooden houses that follow local leylines just like the elves - oh look, GB income and no source impact what logical argument do you make against them?
>
Sidhelien are a special case. Their racial abilities also tend to show
that when they have e.g. "Pass without trace" when I remember right
which no human race has. Their impact on nature is lower and that can?t
simply be copied by any other races leader who decrees "I build like the
elfs!".

> No, it is the logical outcome of your arguments thus far. The reason I said `pointy eared humans` is because by making elves have the same culture and lifestyle as humans - as you seem insistent upon doing - that is exactly what they become. I would suggest that by having elves as a distinctly different culture and race you will enrich your gaming experience - but by all means ignore me - its your game too.
>
Game mechanics allow to make a distinction without being distinctive. A
law holding can be anything from the royal guard to robbing bandits. The
same is true for guilds, they can be the fuggers merchant empire or the
mafia in disguise. So a human guild and a guild in a sidhelien realm
might look and act very different while the "guild holding (1)" looks
the same in both realms and allows a player to receive comparable income
to compete on the realm level.

[AndrewTall]

The article with the Cerilian timeline in Dragon Magazine tells the same
story as the PSoT in that point. The sidhelien conquered the goblins
Why the sidhelien have not driven themselves to extinction? Because they
stopped acting as before?.
Uniting against the elves needs people willing and able to unite. That
may be possible in some games when players suddenly forget that their
realm fought for some hundred years against their human neighbour and
set aside rivalries to united against the sidhelien - but in a
consistent game it would take much to actually unite several human
realms against the sidhelien as long as they stay within their forests.

A common enemy is often used to unite opposing factions - any non-human race is particularly easy to make a common enemy from, overthe length of Cerilian history I wouldn't bet on the elves avoiding being a target for so long - particularly given their history as enemies of all the human tribes - unless they were a sufficiently low threat and hard conquest to make an attack counter productive for the would-be uniter.

Canon as I understand it is what exists as published material from
Wizards. Yes, sometimes it contradicts itself. But that does not mean it
could simply be said by anyone that it is no longer canon. How the
contradictions are explained is open to any DM?s interpretion. And the
whole 2E Atlas was written with "anuirean bias" or from the point of
view of an Anuirean sounds reasonable when considering that the given
author was the Chamberlain of Anuire.

Indeed, but where multiple points contradict a single point? I have tried to explain why I think the PSoT lines (and there aren't many) on conquest which were raised by Autarkis are opposed to canon elsewhere, I was overly snippy (my apologies to Autarkis) and long (further apologies to all uninterested in game background, etc) in responding to him but struggle to see how to reconcile elves having human desires for conquest with canon elsewhere.

Sidhelien are a special case. Their racial abilities also tend to show
that when they have e.g. "Pass without trace" when I remember right
which no human race has. Their impact on nature is lower and that can?t
simply be copied by any other races leader who decrees "I build like the
elfs!".

My point is identifying why they are a special case - to me a mechanic must represent something to be meaningful. I interpret the mechanic is saying a low impact civilisation, that in turn requires further assumptions about culture and physiology.

[ryancaveney]

To a degree they would appear to be with dense bodies and the ability to subsist on dirt and the frequent comments on smithcraft indicate ties to fire. It would shift canon (and therefore clearly upset some) to make dwarves tied to earth and fire, but could be interesting and would differentiate them from humans more.

Oh, I agree completely that they have *ties* to earth and fire -- I just don't think they're as strongly related to them as the Sidhelien are to their elements. My personal Cerilian cosmology offers an explanation of this: the very-earth-linked individuals among the Sidhelien helped create the rather-less-but-still-quite-earth-linked dwarves.

Water and air tend to be the elements of life in systems I've seen, with the earth and even sun simply 'being there' (however vital they are).

I've always thought that lacking any of the four, there could be no life, so life has to be made of all of them -- and of which of the four are *bodies* made, if not earth? (Yes, I know we're really mostly water, but I'm not talking about a 115+ element periodic table right now.) I don't think I came up with that myself ("ashes to ashes, dust to dust," for example, or Harry Belafonte on the Muppet Show: "we come from the fire, living in the fire, go back to the fire, turn the world around..."), but I don't remember exactly where I first encountered it. The Sovereign Stone d20 para-elemental system, which I quite like, is Plant = Earth + Water, Animal = Earth + Fire, Weather = Air + Water, Lightning = Air + Fire.


Ryan

[Dcolby]

Ryan you just love those elves eh??

"And on the Seventh Day the Elves rested..."

[void]

I think the dispute about whether the elves magic everything or not, or have buildings can be solved by saying that the elves are really accomplished in geomancy. When they build houses, they build on geomantic principles to not disturb chi flow ( meghblaih). The human wizard from the above example wouldn't be able to rule his province without decreasing the source because all the buildings would have to be built using geomancy. Unless the wizard personally does this, or trains large enough numbers of engineers to be experts in geomancy that every building is magic flow friendly, he reduces the source when increasing his populace.

If you go from the other thread where the people are already there and you are actually just upping your control of the populace, that makes the wizard's attempt to skirt the rules even easier to deny.