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  1. #1
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    cccpxepoj schrieb:
    > This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread at:
    > http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3853
    > cccpxepoj wrote:
    > people just imagine the advance of elven army, traveling trough land,sky even a shadow world and all that followed whit thunder,lightning.......
    > ok i need to rest
    >
    The sidhelien have lost and are a retreating race in a continent
    formerly theirs.

    IMO an army as you describe it is unfitting for the Birthright setting
    after the human-sidhelien wars. Novels are not canon - but I do like the
    novel "Greatheart" in that it describes the sidhelien of the Sielwode as
    mourning every *single* dead sidhelien as an immortal gone forever.
    Losing a dozen sidhelien is a major loss and even the thought of several
    companies of sidhelien destroyed in a war would be unimaginable as would
    a large army such as you describe. Vietcong guerilla warfare from hiding
    to attempt to prevent the unnecessary loss of any immortal life.

    Or another picture that would fit Birthright: The last alliance of elves
    and men of Gondor marching against Sauron - the whole army is as small
    as former armys vanguards.

  2. #2
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConjurerDragon View Post
    The sidhelien have lost and are a retreating race in a continent
    formerly theirs.

    I do like the novel "Greatheart" in that it describes the sidhelien of the Sielwode as mourning every *single* dead sidhelien as an immortal gone forever.
    For a race who lost - mostly prior to Deismaar, the sidhe are certainly taking their sweet time to die... A resurgence would be slow but is possible given the fractured nature of most of the opposition - Innishiere for example is likely to grow strongly following the absorption of Khinasi refugees as half elves become common place - and are welcomed by Cerilian elves unlike in many other settings.

    But I strongly agree with the reluctance to lose troops, a human realm can absorb hundreds of dead without noticing, the Gorgon probably uses wars to cull the excess goblin population, the elves suffer for every casualty.

  3. #3
    Senior Member ryancaveney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    For a race who lost - mostly prior to Deismaar, the sidhe are certainly taking their sweet time to die... A resurgence would be slow but is possible
    Hence my opinion that most BR campaigns should include the beginning of that Sidhelien resurgence: they have bided their time long enough to build their power up to the point at which some of them think it comfortably exceeds that of all the other races, so the time has come to emerge from the forests and eradicate them all.

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    But I strongly agree with the reluctance to lose troops, a human realm can absorb hundreds of dead without noticing, the Gorgon probably uses wars to cull the excess goblin population, the elves suffer for every casualty.
    Therefore, they should make extensive use of charmed, summoned and created troops. Charming (e.g., the Subversion realm spell) is particularly nice: steal some of your enemy's units and use them to fight the rest -- whether you win or lose the battle, every casualty on both sides works in your favor in the long run. Summoning elementals or creating golems is also very useful since those creatures tend to have good damage reduction, so can easily smash their way through very large numbers of normal soldiers.


    Ryan

  4. #4
    Senior Member Beruin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConjurerDragon View Post
    Vietcong guerilla warfare from hiding to attempt to prevent the unnecessary loss of any immortal life.
    This is a bit nit-picky, but your example left me squirming.
    Have you ever compared the American losses (58.226 soldiers dead or missing) with the Vietnamese losses (1 million Vietcong and NVA fighters, plus 4 million civilians according to Vietnamese sources)? You just can't say that guerilla warfare attempts to prevent unneccessary loss of life. You'll come to similar results when you look at the German army against the Russian partisans in WWII, the Russians in Afghanistan or, more recently, in Chechenia, or when you consider the present situation in Iraq.

    Guerilla warfare in our world is always the weapon of the underdog, who has no other way to strike back. Moreover, it is waged on the back of the civilian population, leading to a very high body count and it also nearly always requires a territory already occupied.

    That said, the Elves in Cerilia will surely employ hit-and-run tactics, they might also prefer to fight on home territory, and they will turn the very forest against any invader, and they will not fight very chivalrous against human vermin. I guess that is what you mean by 'guerilla warfare' and so far I agree. However, I'd also say that they will fight tooth and nail and to the last elf before they'll allow an enemy to come near to one of their cities.

  5. #5
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    Beruin schrieb:
    > This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread at:
    > http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3853
    > Beruin wrote:
    > ------------ QUOTE ----------
    >
    > Vietcong guerilla warfare from hiding to attempt to prevent the unnecessary loss of any immortal life.
    >
    > -----------------------------
    >
    >
    > This is a bit nit-picky, but your example left me squirming.
    > Have you ever compared the American losses (58.226 soldiers dead or missing) with the Vietnamese losses (1 million Vietcong and NVA fighters, plus 4 million civilians according to Vietnamese sources)? You just can`t say that guerilla warfare attempts to prevent unneccessary loss of life. You`ll come to similar results when you look at the German army against the Russian partisans in WWII, the Russians in Afghanistan or, more recently, in Chechenia, or when you consider the present situation in Iraq.
    >
    > Guerilla warfare in our world is always the weapon of the underdog, who has no other way to strike back. Moreover, it is waged on the back of the civilian population, leading to a very high body count and it also nearly always requires a territory already occupied.
    >
    > That said, the Elves in Cerilia will surely employ hit-and-run tactics, they might also prefer to fight on home territory, and they will turn the very forest against any invader, and they will not fight very chivalrous against human vermin. I guess that is what you mean by `guerilla warfare` and so far I agree. However, I`d also say that they will fight tooth and nail and to the last elf before they`ll allow an enemy to come near to one of their cities.
    >

    When comparing then don?t count only the soldiers of the USA on one
    side. South Vietnam had casualties as well. When you compare the overall
    casualties and leave the american air raids and bombings out of the
    comparison then it?s more what I wanted to show. Vietcong tactics used
    by the sidhelien - while the human and goblin opponents have no airforce
    available.
    Or perhaps a comparison less likely to bring up images of modern wars:
    "Robin Hood"?s methods employed by the sidhelien against humanities Guy
    of Gisborne.

  6. #6
    Senior Member cccpxepoj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConjurerDragon View Post
    Or perhaps a comparison less likely to bring up images of modern wars: "Robin Hood"?s methods employed by the sidhelien against humanities Guy of Gisborne.
    There is no "robin hood" tactics for elves, to have efficient "robin hood" tactic you have to have local population on your side, and that way they will never expand their borders. That tactic work only in the state of occupation by the foreign power( humans,humanoids,dwarfs,other elves more likely) .
    Last edited by Thelandrin; 06-12-2007 at 06:10 PM. Reason: Reduced the huge quote. Please keep quotes to the relevant text.

  7. #7
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cccpxepoj View Post
    There is no "robin hood" tactics for elves, to have efficient "robin hood" tactic you have to have local population on your side, and that way they will never expand their borders. That tactic work only in the state of occupation by the foreign power( humans,humanoids,dwarfs,other elves more likely) .

    Actually the comparison seems pretty decent.

    The elves do have local population on their side (the elves within the forests).

    The humans are trying to insert their influence (ala Gisborne) and are being met with stinging tactics.

    Elves have pretty much not been able to expand their borders - they have at best been able to keep the "infringement" from outsiders to a minimum in the centuries since the elf-human wars.
    Duane Eggert

  8. #8
    Senior Member ryancaveney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by irdeggman View Post
    the (Robin Hood) comparison seems pretty decent.
    Not to me. Robin Hood is about resisting the depredations of an occupying power. I don't think any human army in "present-day" Cerilia could possibly occupy a Sidhelien province for long enough to make a guerrilla-type resistance movement necessary. I see the response as far more overwhelming than merely "stinging." In my view, five minutes after the "humans have crossed the border!" alarm rings in the capital, several high-level wizards appear, and unleash enough magic (including charming some of the humans, summoning monsters and animating the trees) in a matter of minutes that the human force of thousands is retreating in disorder or utterly obliterated less than half a hour after their incursion began. I see attempting to invade the Sidhelien forests as more akin to walking slowly across no man's land in 1916 -- in broad daylight, into the teeth of the machine guns and artillery barrages -- than anything else.


    Ryan

  9. #9
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Only yesterday, as I read these posts, I reflected on how I see the elven armies as highly brittle, devestating first strikes, but no staying power in the field. The elves appear on the battlefield at moments of their choosing, inflict a devestating strike, then fade away before the enemy has a chance to recover their footing and harm any elves.

    The casualties of N Vietnam were so high because America intentionally adopted a stratey of attrition, and as a totalitarian state, N Vietnam was able to endure those casualties.

    The sidhe enemies likewise could (and probabaly would be happy to) adopt a strategy of attrition, even unfavorably, because like the Americans, the elves can't abide casualties (ah ha, the apt analogy puts the elves in the American position!).

    So instead the sidhe adopt a policy of overwhelming force.

    I think of a science fiction version of the elves, the Romulans, who like their sidhe counterparts, have an anxiety about casualties, and have a superior magic - the cloaking device and plasma torpedo, which allows them to make devestating first strikes which attempt to cripple the enemy before they can respond appropriatly. Like the Romulans, the elves can appear anywhere, either "cloaked" with invisibility, or through magical transportation (flying, actual transportation spells, so on) inflict their mighty attack (and though the fireball does bring up images of the plasma torpedo, others are right to suggest the sidhe won't use it in the forest).

  10. #10
    Senior Member Beruin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConjurerDragon View Post
    When comparing then don?t count only the soldiers of the USA on one
    side. South Vietnam had casualties as well. When you compare the overall
    casualties and leave the american air raids and bombings out of the
    comparison then it?s more what I wanted to show. Vietcong tactics used
    by the sidhelien - while the human and goblin opponents have no airforce
    available.
    Or perhaps a comparison less likely to bring up images of modern wars:
    "Robin Hood"?s methods employed by the sidhelien against humanities Guy
    of Gisborne.
    The South Vietnam army had 223,748 losses, the SEATO countries, mainly Australia and New Zealand, lost about 5,000 soldiers, even if taken together the Vietcong/NVA still suffered a lot more casualities. The civilian losses were evenly divided between North and South Vietnam (2 million each), but are probably quite imprecise anyway. North Vietnam could only prevail in this war because it was willing to suffer this losses and to sacrifice so many of its own people and carry on regardless.
    In my view, you can't take the massive air bombardement out of the picture, it's part of this war and also quite typical of trying to counter guerilla tactics. The exertion of massive force results in part from military doctrine (i.e. trying to demoralize the enemy), but also from helplessness, i.e. the US could think of no other way to oust the Vietcong apart from trying to destroy their supply base or 'defoliating' whole regions to deprive them of their hiding places.
    In contrast, guerillas often try to provoke excessive retaliation to show the civilian population how vile and brutal their enemy really is, hoping that they will garner more support this way.

    Okay, let's stop the Vietnam debate and get back to Cerilia. One analogy I see though, is that enemies must be willing to exert a massive amount of force, their only chance to oust the elves being to literally burn down their forests to the ground. However, the question is who can bring in more firepower.
    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck View Post
    ah ha, the apt analogy puts the elves in the American position!).
    That sounds about right to me. Damn, I spent about two hours researching Vietnam and thinking on how to put my position, and kgauck sums it up perfectly in a few sentences
    However, the question remains how the humans could be so successful in Cerilia if the elves were and still are able to bring such an overwhelming amount of force to bear.
    So far, I see Ryan's thoughts on deity-dampened magic and the presence of avatars as the only viable solution...

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