Undead Legion

[ShadowMoon]

This statement has bothered ever since I first read it.

Maybe I've missed something, but where does it state this?

In Iron Throne, when Michael used halflings Shadow Portal (Futhark was his name I think) to move his armies quick. They were attacked by some of the undead of the Shadow World, and fallen soldiers would be animated by the Shadow World's negative energies as soon as they would hit the ground. So Gylvain (elven sorcerer) used fire against them, and halfling open emergency exit, so they all ended in Spiderfell...

Hope this will refresh Your memory a bit.

[ShadowMoon]

Not like animals? Animation has the same root word, anima (life, breath) of which the past participle is animatus, give life to. Now in a spirit driven cosmology, its very clear what this means, you find a life force and attach it to whatever you are animating. Water, air, and fire clearly have their own sprits as they move on their own. Earth can be presumed to have a spirit which moves occasionally (landslides, ultimatly earthquakes) but is normally not all that inclined to move about.

This is more shamanism then necromancy point of view. And if You use it like this, Your necromancer doesn't use Negative Energy, but they summon spirits from around.

The SRD states that "Undead are once-living creatures animated by spiritual or supernatural forces."

So? That doesn't mean that animated creature retains their old (living) personalities and character traits. Animate Dead and Create Undead is big difference.

Regarding the lower undead as true puppets, where the caster must telekeneticly move every limb, even if we assume that negative energy is empowering all of this telekenisis, is a more sophisticated kind of magic than simply binding a spirit to a corpse, and giving it instructions. The level of concentration would be much higher, and one would assume abilities lacking in the caster (hand eye coordination) would be controlling for the puppet.

Again, you take Shamanism and Conjuration approach to Necromancy.

[kgauck]

So? That doesn't mean that animated creature retains their old (living) personalities and character traits. Animate Dead and Create Undead is big difference.

I'm not arguing that they retain any memory and personality. I'm summoning sprit, so I argue you get the memories and personality (such as it is) of the spirit summoned. In the case of spells with the Necromancy school (or Death descriptor) you are dealing with spirts of the Shadow World many of whom, as I recall have a negative energy life force.

I'm not using a shamanic interpretation because I like it better. Its because as I read the setting materials, especially Blood Spawn, but other things as well, I think the setting has (or strongly implies) a shamanic approach. This may conflict with core rules, but that's what settings do.

Spectral scions and the like in 2nd edition ended up as seperate creature write-ups, but in 3rd edition, we have hauntings and templates for incorporeal beings, and such, which makes it much easier to take the logic of some color text in the 2nd edition materials and make the world work that way.

Another example, tribes and families have totemic spirit animals, and in a rage, Vos tribes especially, immitate that totem while in a rage, a Rjurik doom involves shape changing, and its much easier with 3.5 to just make this all spirit phenomena, where the warrior accepts or changes places with the totemic spirit.

[Dcolby]

"I'm summoning sprit, so I argue you get the memories and personality (such as it is) of the spirit summoned."

It is certainly for each individual D.M. to consider, but my take on the key Differance between "animated" undead and Ghost Like apparitions like the Spectral Scion is will or desire.

That injustice or unfinished task that binds the Ghostlike entities to the Prime Plane is what allows it to "remember" its personality and goals just does not (to me at least) exist in the spirits pulled from the negative plane (or the Shadow what have you) to power the weaker undead, sort of blank tabula that have forgotten their previous lives.

For me at least.

The Created Undead are certainly another thing entirely. Perhaps the need for a "Stronger" or more "Vital" spirit in order to acheive a "self awareness" is what makes the Create Undead a higher/harder spell than Animate.

Good topic though, like hearing all the views.

[irdeggman]

In Iron Throne, when Michaele used halflings Shadow Portal (Futhark was his name I think) to move his armies quick. They were attacked by some of the undead of the Shadow World, and fallen soldiers would be animated by the Shadow World's negative energies as soon as they would hit the ground. So Gylvain (elven sorcerer) used fire against them, and halfling open emergency exit, so they all ended in Spiderfell...

Hope this will refresh Your memory a bit.

I would not use a novel as a "rules" reference. They work reall well for "color" and some "history" but not for rules mechanics.

In Blood Spawn - elves and seelie faeries share ancestory coming from the Sie. When an elf is born a new seelie appears in the Seelie Court. Elves are mortal in the Shadow World and immortal on Aebrynnis, with the Seelie faeries having the opposite rule.

IMO (and using Blood Spawn and other "rule" books the issue in Iron Throne could best be attributed to the seeming and its effects on "reality". Not an automatic raising of those who die.

Also how would the details of Great Heart follow this supposed rule about those who die in the Shadow World becoming undead? You have an elf who died and is seen visiting his human "adopted son" while fighting for his life in the Shadow World. {But he already "died" before he went there. . . .} treat it as poetic license and not a rules issue. Great Heart also has elves (and the human) merging into trees - hmm no rules to cover that one (and they are not druids).

[ConjurerDragon]

kgauck schrieb:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3701
> kgauck wrote:
> ------------ QUOTE ----------
> Another way to interpret the printed score is that the unit is not composed of mere skeletons and zombies, but rather some more powerful kind of undead creature.
> -----------------------------
>
> You`ve mentioned this in the deep past, but of late I have noticed a twist on it, which I have to reflect on before I can agree. Going with more powerful undead generally means the ability to create spawn. This is impressive, and given the realm spell that powers it, and the time, source, and cash investment, maybe this is the right answer. But we probabaly should consider the possibility that this is a self-recruiting army. Even if its just a ghoul army with ghast officers, it could in theory double or triple in size before you encounter an enemy.
> Consider a siege of a town of 2000 souls by such an Undead Legion. If not relieved, the whole town could be slain (except the defenders who die before the breech) and be converted to ghouls. Roughly a quarter of the slain would rise per day until after four days, the whole town (again subtract those who died before the breech, and those who were consumed to sataiate the ghouls cravings for flesh) would rise as spawn of the Undead Legion.
> As several posters have reminded us, an Undead Legion requires the presence of the caster of the realm spell. What of the spawn? Could they detach and raid communities off the route of the Legion? Could they stay and hold towns while the remaining dead spawn? Could they circle around and flank an army? If your army lost would the survivors fight the slain a week later, now even more outnumbered?
> In a world where undead are raised by unnatural forces, or corrupt magic, wouldn`t the normal practice be cremation?
>
Mentioning "more powerful undead" - some of the more powerful undead are
for example incorporeal and so completely invulnerable to any weapon any
mundane company of soldiers could field just like a simple gargoyle is a
terrible foe in Birthright as few to none of the common soldiers will
have any magical weapon.
This would bring back the fear of the undead army unit as the 2E warcard
was one of the strongest units on the field, similar to Stonecrown
Ogres. I do not like the thought of a sluggishly slow, vulnerable and
easily defeated dumb pack of skeletons/zombies as army unit.

Cremation: Not necessary. Even 50 years ago in our world most catholics
would be very uneasy to even consider creamation because of the belief
that one day god will let both soul and body rise. Or any egyptian would
be horrified to think that his body would be destroyed after his death.
In our game I think that cremation could be practiced and even promoted
by Avani (as Basaia was the godess of fire) and Laerme but few other
gods. Perhaps Kriesha collects the bodies of her dead faithful in a
frozen sea in Vosgaard for later use - but to give them to the element
of her greatest adversary? ;-)

[ConjurerDragon]

irdeggman schrieb:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3800
> irdeggman wrote:
> ------------ QUOTE ----------
> In Iron Throne, when Michaele used halflings Shadow Portal (Futhark was his name I think) to move his armies quick. They were attacked by some of the undead of the Shadow World, and fallen soldiers would be animated by the Shadow World`s negative energies as soon as they would hit the ground. So Gylvain (elven sorcerer) used fire against them, and halfling open emergency exit, so they all ended in Spiderfell...
>
> Hope this will refresh Your memory a bit.
> -----------------------------
>
> I would not use a novel as a "rules" reference. They work reall well for "color" and some "history" but not for rules mechanics.
>
> In Blood Spawn - elves and seelie faeries share ancestory coming from the Sie. When an elf is born a new seelie appears in the Seelie Court. Elves are mortal in the Shadow World and immortal on Aebrynnis, with the Seelie faeries having the opposite rule.
>
> IMO (and using Blood Spawn and other "rule" books the issue in Iron Throne could best be attributed to the seeming and its effects on "reality". Not an automatic raising of those who die.
>
> Also how would the details of Great Heart follow this supposed rule about those who die in the Shadow World becoming undead? You have an elf who died and is seen visiting his human "adopted son" while fighting for his life in the Shadow World. {But he already "died" before he went there. . . .} treat it as poetic license and not a rules issue. Great Heart also has elves (and the human) merging into trees - hmm no rules to cover that one (and they are not druids).
>
To give another reasoning to that occurance: It need not mean that
soldiers slain by undead rise as undead on the spot - it can also be
interpreted as soldiers slain by undead *while in the shadow world* rise
as undead on the spot. Creepy place that shadow world.

[ShadowMoon]

...This would bring back the fear of the undead army unit as the 2E warcard
was one of the strongest units on the field, similar to Stonecrown
Ogres. I do not like the thought of a sluggishly slow, vulnerable and
easily defeated dumb pack of skeletons/zombies as army unit.

Mindless (dumb) Undead regiment is not easily defeated, they are still undead, and have all traits of the Undead. They just lack initiative and sentience of their own, but still if used by an experienced caster, they make a formidable foe. And even if not used right, they present real challenge for the living forces, because of their traits and terror.

Cremation: Not necessary. Even 50 years ago in our world most catholics
would be very uneasy to even consider creamation because of the belief
that one day god will let both soul and body rise. Or any egyptian would
be horrified to think that his body would be destroyed after his death.
In our game I think that cremation could be practiced and even promoted
by Avani (as Basaia was the godess of fire) and Laerme but few other
gods. Perhaps Kriesha collects the bodies of her dead faithful in a
frozen sea in Vosgaard for later use - but to give them to the element
of her greatest adversary? ;-)

I like the idea of Avani's and Laerme's servant communion with their goddesses through cremation,. You my friend, just got robbed ^^;

In my campaign only Ruornil's servants used cremation (because of his secret war with the shadow). But this makes more sense.

[ShadowMoon]

To give another reasoning to that occurance: It need not mean that
soldiers slain by undead rise as undead on the spot - it can also be
interpreted as soldiers slain by undead *while in the shadow world* rise
as undead on the spot. Creepy place that shadow world.

Yeah, I tend to go with that one...

[AndrewTall]

Cremation: Not necessary. Even 50 years ago in our world most catholics
would be very uneasy to even consider creamation because of the belief
that one day god will let both soul and body rise. Or any egyptian would
be horrified to think that his body would be destroyed after his death.
In our game I think that cremation could be practiced and even promoted
by Avani (as Basaia was the godess of fire) and Laerme but few other
gods. Perhaps Kriesha collects the bodies of her dead faithful in a
frozen sea in Vosgaard for later use - but to give them to the element
of her greatest adversary? ;-)

Hmm, in this world corporeal undead don't exist - if there was a chance that some foul spirit from the Shadow World would steal the body of your friend after they died, wouldn't you give them a clean, final ending? Would the religions not even demand it to prevent the body being so despoiled? Simple practicality suggests that one vampire plague would make cremation not just the norm, but mandatory...

It is worth remembering that despite all the guff about eternal truths many of the 'health and safety' aspects of religion are very mutable things - when such a religious law causes serious problems for the faithful it gets changed (it may take a few generations but a more 'rational' interpretation will emerge) - if as a regent half your population got butchered by a member of the Lost and their undead legions, would you just bury the dead for the next such lich to summon as his allies?

Kriesha has a bit of a problem with fire as written, but Laerme's faithful can be taught that fire is a harsh destructive force and Avani's that books burn in fire... The reverence of how the brutality of nature winnows out the weak could easily allow for fire-revering priests of Kriesha in Khinasi say - the Vos and Rjurik where she is strongest clearly see the wrath of nature in ice due to climate - and her faithful might dispose of the faithful by feeding them to wild life (sharks, vultures, etc) or the like.

As far as the undead legion warcard goes remember how dirt cheap it is - no GB cost, not even RP under the standard rules... The unit should be dirt-cheap cannon fodder as that is what you are paying for. The spell admittedly costs a reasonable sum - but is still cheap by comparison to similar super-elite units.