Harvest god: Erik or Avani?

[RaspK_FOG]

I would hold that religion, especially in a world where clerics can actually ask for miracles to happen (which is, pretty much, what cleric spells are), does not quite fall under the premise of how people perceive it per se; for all we know, people waged wars in the name of a religion they never had any clue whether their beliefs were absolutely true - because they believed in it!

[Note that it's always demagogues that run such campaigns.]

Now, consider how this relates to Cerilia: we have 11 deities, of which interestingly enough all 3 of the new ones (the divine children of some of the people that ascended to godhood in Deismaar) are chaotic (the force of change?)! How would one go about believing in these?

Consider their portfolio for a moment - the elder gods are Nobility and War, Mourning and the Seas, Reason and the Sun & Secrets and the Moon + Magic, Nature, and Commerce: aspects as ancient and fundamental in Cerilian society as one can have. On the other hand, you have Courage and Personal Combat, Love and Passions, and Darkness and Larcey: all themes a little too adventurous, youthful, foolish, even. Or are they? Aren't they the fields in which youth excels or strives to do so?

All in all, religion in Cerilia is deeply reasonable, because the deities are, in fact, very human in their own ways - not as deified human aspects in humanoid form, but deified humans! How can you not relate to something like that?

[geeman]

At 07:55 PM 1/9/2007, irdeggman wrote:

>The Vos are pretty much "owned" by their religious leaders of Belnik
>and Kreisha and thus are very much against (as a whole) other
>deities. They would most likey view Avani and Rounil as week and
>there is that propensity against arcane magic for their culture too.
>Sera is again economics, which is also a week profession. Nesire
>has use as the goddess of the sea. Haelyn is worthy of respect as is
>Cuicean. The others are pretty much not "strong" enough to be worthy
>of worhsip of the Vos.

Actually, the best represented god among the Vos is Rournil since his
worship predated that of B & K. (Well, his predecessor`s worship did....)

There is colour commentary that indicates that the Vos have little
regard for the Cerilian gods other than B & K, but if one goes
through the TotHW one finds that though those gods certainly dominate
the temple holdings they do not dominate them in a way that is
exceptional compared to other regions of Cerilia. Vosgaard is rather
scarcely developed when it comes to temple holdings, but if we
exclude the elven and humanoid domains several other gods are pretty
well represented. Zoloskaya, for example, has no temples to B & K,
and Ruornil`s temple holdings in that land are described as
"overwhelming." I haven`t done a comparison of holding levels by
region or anything, but it would be interesting to see how the
various gods were represented there in comparison to, say, Erik`s
temples in the RH.

I think we should bear in mind when it comes to the Vos that a lot of
the material we have on them is meant to be from the Anuirean POV and
is suspect.

Gary

[Saragon]

AndrewTall: I'm not going to try to gainsay your decision not to include the Cerilian gods as actors in your campaign -- your game, your call, as always. However, I think there are a couple of things you and others might be overlooking; and since you've actually addressed a lot of things, and quite well, I'd like to go through this point by point.

Except that aside from Eloele none of the gods do walk the world - they made a pact not to do so.

The days when the Gods did walk the worlds, and Deismaar are a very long time ago - even for an elf.

Technically true. However, there are a couple of factors that keep the supernatural in the minds of Cerilians. The supernatural capabilities of blooded scions may not be seen by everyone, but they doubtless feature in plenty of bardic tales; likewise, anyone who has served in the levies or the irregulars could have very well been commanded by someone with a minor bloodline. Remember too that this is a world filled with dangers -- beasts in the woods; goblinoids attacking small farms and even an occasional town; shadows and horrors in the night and in the dark places of the world; and behind all of these things, the awnsheghn.

As regards Deismaar what would stop the priest of the new god saying that the new god was there but the corrupt priests of xxx simply denied him his rightful honours in the legends? 'Hearken ye to the true story of Deismaar?

Let's set aside questions like "Where would the inspiration for this new god come from?" -- that's story and campaign stuff, and never a problem to a good DM. The problem here comes from the fact that even the NPC acolyte class gets a few orisons and a few 'real' spells, and those spells have to be granted by gods that actually exist. Anyone claiming to represent a "new" (or "forgotten") god might convince a few gullible people here and there, but eventually someone's going to ask for a demonstration of the god's power. (Adding a different god to a campaign's pantheon, or making mechanical changes allowing clerics to get spells no matter what, is a separate matter entirely; but at that point we're so far afield that we aren't really talking about the Birthright core setting anymore.)

Bloodlines and priests also quite possibly undermine belief rather than supporting it - the gods simply becomes someone with a high bloodline (or a very powerful priest / wizard) rather than some kind of 'higher' being, and why worship someone who is just another man/woman?

A great idea for a heretic NPC (and in fact I may mention it to my Birthright game's DM today when we sit down for our extended session.) However, the same problem as the one above rears its ugly head: The granting of divine spells. Blooded scions are respected or feared -- certainly treated with deference -- but even the followers of the most powerful scions do not receive divine spells from this behaviour. (Tangent: I might let the Gorgon be an exception to this rule, since he works best as an epic creature with near-demigod status anyway; but I could certainly see a lot of his followers worshipping Belenik.) Only those who specifically and expressly pray to a God receive their allotment of spells, and then only if they adhere to the teachings of that God. And those spells can't come from a universal "spiritual force" that some people can tap into; the very existence of domains and portfolios keeps that from being the case.

I want to stress that this is, ultimately, a mechanic; if you can come up with a way around this problem, and it's in your game, then have at it. My point is that there are rational reasons that the people in the Birthright setting do not, as a whole, have a problem with their divine pantheon as a rational proposal -- it exists and has an indirect but noticeable effect on the world.

This 'you must worship your local god because otherwise they will walk over and bop you' concern is one reason why I eliminated them in my campaign - having no sapient sentient gods is a definite improvement.

I would note that even if you do rule that everyone knows and respects their local god it doesn't necessarily follow that they worship that god. Anyone who sees themselves as standing apart from society - above (nobles, possibly wealthy merchants) below (serfs, criminals) or to the side (sailors / travelers, soldiers) etc could easily see why they, as a special case, should follow a god more in tune with their thinking rather than kneel before the local god alongside the plebs.

Sadly, I think you're missing out on some great story opportunities here, and perhaps simplifying things too much. There are very few references in the Birthright material to direct divine smitings. Moonstrike Keep is the only one that immediately comes to mind; all other direct intervention takes the forms of appearances, gifts of items (the Shield of Haelyn from the Priestcraft book, for example.) Cerilia was designed to specifically not be the Forgotten Realms, full of wandering fickle gods.

As far as various individuals not worshipping the "local god" -- of course! No society with any sort of freedom can enforce universal reverence of anything. This isn't just common sense, it's in the Birthright mechanics -- that's what level-0 temple holdings are for, and why larger provinces can split up temple holdings. Down in Anduire, Haelyn, Eric and Cuiracen exist side-by-side quite well, and this mechanic reflects that. In cultures where not worshipping a particular god carries significant social or legal penalties, worshippers of different gods might attend services anyway, but they'd still probably hold secret meetings and services. And really, certain gods and goddesses are better worshipped in secret anyway.