Ascension

[RaspK_FOG]

Exactly! They are as similar as they are different to them!

And, to point out how things truly are, the Sidhelien were not there when the original 7 deities walked on the world that was to be Aebrynis.

[Doyle]

...<snip>...And, to point out how things truly are, the Sidhelien were not there when the original 7 deities walked on the world that was to be Aebrynis.

Lack of sleep may mean that I am missing the point of this, but how do you mean "not there"?
They walked onto the field of battle with Azrai (famous battle - Mount something or other), most changing sides or just leaving when they realised just who they were fighting with. Then Azrai and the other six went down (that was the seven I was referring to). Eight rose in their place and another three followed in the centuries after, these would be the ones that some elves would be older than.
As a side note, from the original rulebook, only Moradin and Kartathok are the only surviving pre-Deismar deities and thus the only ones that could be older than some elves - could that be correct?

[RaspK_FOG]

That is correct, only these are as old... Or is it?
(again, please read Blood Spawn)

What I meant was that the old deities were the first to be "born" off the land, neither elves nor dragons... True, they were close seconds (the dragons being WAY closer than the elves [again, Blood Spawn]), but not there.

[irdeggman]

Just to help people with the constant references to Blood Spawn here is some of the pertinent text.

Pg 5 of Blood Spawn.

When Two World Were One sidebar. . . .

The sages say that long ago, perhaps before humanity existed on Aebrynis, the world of Daylight and the world of Shadow were as one. The landscape of Aebrynis had not completely formed then, and the world could change according to its own rules, without rhyme or reason. A lake might form where a mountain had been, white glaciers moved over deserts, and rivers flowed through the sky. This was a time before the gods, but it ultimately resulted in their creation.

The gods, it is believed, were formed out of the land, and their natures bound them to it. Not wishing their natures to change without warning, as did the land, they began to enforce their will upon the world. Mountains, rivers, shores, and seas all took shape and stayed constant, bent to the will of the young gods. But one god delighted in the ever-changing world and refused to bind his will and his being to the land. That god became Lord of Shadow, the god of Chaos and Change. He became Azrai.

Little is known of the gods’ earliest years in this time before humans and, perhaps, before elves. Giants walked the earth along with near-immortal beasts and other beings lost to the passage of time. It is said, however, that in the beginning Azrai alone of the gods willed change and evolution into being. If this is true, the race of humanity— as well as many of the other races now inhabiting Aebrynis—owe their existence to him.

The elements of permanence and transience—light and shadow—warred in those early days, and their battles grew so great that a rift formed between the land of Shadow and the land of Daylight. Passage between the two was still possible, even common, in those days, but soon (as gods measure time) the Shadow World and the world of Aebrynis solidified their borders. Aebrynis remained constant, only transforming in response to the actions of its inhabitants over long periods, while the Shadow World remained mutable and ever-changing.

Then came Deismaar, the destruction of the gods, and the cleaving of the world. The Shadow World became a place of fear and strange tales for those remaining on Aebrynis and now, more than fifteen hundred years later, only a scant number of people know more than a few tales of the Shadow World and its inhabitants. The Shadow World remains in flux. Halflings alone of Cerilia’s races may still pass freely between the two worlds and, since halflings fled the Shadow World in response to a terror they will not reveal, most are loathe to do so. And even a halfling would find it difficult to navigate the ever-changing land of Shadow.

Also pg 27 under seelie faerie. . .

The seelie faeries were the first children of the Shadow World. Long ago, when the waking world and the Shadow World were one, a race known as the Sie (“see”) populated the land. These creatures were beings of great magic, innate wielders of both sorcery that worked with nature (priestly spells) and sorcery that broke the rules of nature (wizardly spells). They cast their spells not by the prayer of priests or the rote memorization of human wizards, but rather the gathering of magical energies (the process yet employed by today’s elves).

The force that spilt the world into two halves was so strong that it also split the land’s inhabitants, ripping the Sie in twain. Each creature became two separate entities—a faerie (seelie) in the Shadow World and an elf (Sidhe) in Cerilia. The seelie retained control of natural magic and gained power over a new force in the Shadow World: the Seeming. The Sidhe retained control of wizardly magic and became bound to the land itself.

Though the ancient link between the two peoples has long since been forgotten by all but the Faerie Queen (the only surviving Sie), to this day, when an elf is born in Cerilia, a new faerie appears in the Seelie Court. While it is possible that a traveling elf or faerie could meet its counterpart, no one knows what would happen in such an extraordinary event.

Unless slain, seelie faeries are immortal in the Shadow World but mortal in Cerilia. Conversely, elves are immortal in Cerilia but mortal in the Shadow World. The faeries are as attuned to the nature of the Shadow World as elves are to Cerilia. This link enables them to exist in such a hostile environment with virtually no natural predators. The evil of the Shadow World , however, holds plenty of unnatural ones.

Seelie faeries are generally vegetarians, subsisting primarily on fruits, nuts, roots, and seeds. They do, however, eat meat when it is offered to them. The fair folk have an aversion to milk—a means by which savvy individuals have been known to expose a faerie so masked in the Seeming that its identity was otherwise indetermineable.

[Talaran]

To play devil's advocate, well early into the discussion someone said that there is no pre-existing example of anyone ascending to god status after Deismaar, but that is not completely correct. The servants of the Serpent claims that "he has ascended to a heavenly throne and now comes to the mortal world of Cerilia in his tangible form only when it pleases him to do so." The Serpent, furthermore, somehow has the ability to grant up to 5th level spells. This is stated in the Serpent section of the Blood Enemies book. And while it is possible that the Serpent has become a recluse and suddenly no longer wishes his subjects to stand in his glory, it does not explain that he can grant clerical spells to his priests.

Talaran

[Gman]

Good quotes from iredeggman!

The original premise is that because the magical energy released at Desimar is "god energy" that enough of it would bring someone closer to ascending.
Not a bad idea.
But you should never make anything easy for your players - make them work for everthing as otherwise they don't value it - slow them down - let them crawl towards demi godhood.

The Energy of the Land - giving regency and sometimes granting spontaneous blood powers is somehow connected with the release of power at desimar but not -in my understanding completely defined in the writings of BR.

Elves are more likely to have access to ancient Laylines of extreme power!

One idea I've enjoyed is giving the elves ancient "Taigs" Holy places of stored magical power - usually stone, glades or lakes where they deposit magical energy - this energy can be drawn on by those that best understand what the magic is intented for - the protection of the land, and furthering Elven kind. (house rule)

The Gorgon chose not to ascend- all that paperwork; priests praying at him wanting stuff from him all the time- sending avatars here and there -obviously not his scene.

Of course has anyone considered that if the Gorgon has been poaching bloodlines for 1000 years that even at the rate of one blood point a year...

Stealing the name from a isolated tower in the middle of nowhere Malentor's tower (birthright computer game) I used the name Malentor for an archmage researching ascention.
Birthright was his chosen domain of research.

The Plan.
Research everthing possible about bloodlines and blood magic. - Tomes and artifacts essential.

Gain personal bloodline.
- how does a non Cerilian gain bloodline - several ways - one is the gifting of it. (Quest for players)
- Tigmaverial - who has it where can I get it. Stated that only about 8 items exist but more than this are listed in individual items. (Quest for players) mabey steal it from the Gorgons throne room eh?

Discover that even upon possessing tighmaverial with archmage skills and intelligence to match he can't reproduce it.

- seek the lost lore of tigmaverial. Very hard quest for players seeing the smith is allegedly dead. (decided this wasn't exactly the case in my world).

- Crafting Tigmaverial - special materials needed.
-Design God slaying Tigmaverial Weapon. (preferably evil god slaying only)

Craft it on Moradin's Mountaintop forge. - pacify angry dwarven city after desecrating their holy place.

Travel back from Cerilia to the forgotten Realms.

Find specific Portals for travelling the planes.

Select target for god slaying weapon.(Vehrune)
Convince enemies of the god that they should help. (Most elven deities hate him but Elistraee one of the "easiest".

Make sure intended god doesn't find out about it.

simultaneously ambush all avatars. (3 I think)

Attack his throne room on home plane - (hase lots of shadowdragons as pets so watch out for shrinking levels) + spend lots of time ducking and weaving.
*Do not attempt this without help from other gods.

Use spellfire/wild magical power from exploding Darkelven city to power transition.(blowing up darkeven city can be done in conjuction with killing avatar). Holy figure appears above many population centres speaking works of wisdom.

Get players to roll 50/50 chance for character/Npc to be allowed to ascend - The attempt is weighted in the balance by Aule ... Otherwise death or other nasty things can result.

Players get to be hunted by minions of Lothe, Gunedar, and Vehrune. (although Vehrune reduced to demi power and lost part of portfolio). but they do have a fledgling god of intrigue as a buddy.

During this time (several years of playing) the Pc's went from about 3rd to about 15th level.

Not easy.

Apologies for the spelling of certain names as I wasn't home to check them.

[oximoron]

There is certainly nothing that says that elves cannot become or have gods. The quotes from irdeggman say that elves do not worship human gods. But would an ascended elf be a "human" god or a god like the human gods. The elves would not worship such a deity but would have to agree with the principles involved. A new elven deity would probably take up a similar role as the teachers in elven society currently have (don't remember the name for it at the moment). That is to guide but not to be blindly worshiped.

Many elves are unlikely to ever trust any god at all so if there was a new religion it would likely not spread very fast.

As to how to achieve divinity there should never be just one method of gaining it if that is the route that the DM wishes for the players to go.

For elves the process may involve for example.
To find their seelie double and merge/conquer/vanquish
To discover the source of the ancient layline system and bathe in the power of nature.
To gain divine assistance to pass the threshold of divinity.
Vanquish a divine being diametrically opposed to you
To gain total power over a realm in both Aebrynis and the Shadow world
To take both Seelie and Bloodlines to a certain level (the seelie ability to manipulate the Shadow world that is)
To reach a certain point of arcane knowledge and perform an epic ritual(what is the highest NPC arcane level known)
To gain possession of an artifact of extreme power (example the Sielehr)

[MatanThunder]

NOTE: Old school second edition and literature reference here!!!!

The ideas of ascension, especially as it takes place in early Cerilia is hardly novel in the gaming community as a whole and in other campaigns fantasy literature has done that very thing.

I wouldn't say that the comparison is completely paralell, but the premise certainly draws the two versions together.

In the Time of Troubles on Faerun the Dieties are tossed out of the heavens by Ao. The situation leads to all sorts of mischief, which included the death of certain gods on the surface of that planet itself.

Bane is killed (he comes back smaller though) as does Bhaal & Myrkul. And Mystara the Goddess of Magic also takes the final dirt nap too. Their essences energies are spread about the world of Faerun, but some adventurers pick up on these essences.

The character of Midnight takes on the revised role of Mystra, Cyric picks up Banes, Bhaals, & Myrkuls Patheons. There were one or two other members of the group to become embroiled in this ascension process, but Adon & Kelemvor are not ascended.

The method of the ascension of these two former NPC's is somewhat akin to the drops of devine energy that spewed about mount Deismaar. In the Time of Troubles on Faerun the essences of the gods that were destroyed took on the forms of invisible tokens/totems of power, that were only visible to a few like the Chosen (7 sisters & Elminster) and also the chosen new deities could track such vast stores of devine energy. They continued to come across a number of such tokens/totems even after the Times of Troubles, which is how Bane got back into the picture. (I believe).

Now in the 2nd Edition Atlas of Cerilia, they say, "In their proximity to the gods, they (champions of the gods) had taken the brunt of divine essence released by their gods' death that washed across the land." & "The shampions, also closest to the gods in their ideals were elevated to replace the vanished dieties".

This is similar to the Faerunian Deities Cyric and Mystra as they were close to the dieing dieties when they assumed/ascended to their divine energy. It may also beg the question of if there is a Divine presence like Ao at work in Cerilia, because who is it that did the elevating. Others who have posted on this thread have mentioned ways to ascend, that are not quite of the flavor that the current deities of Cerilia were elevated.

Now there are ways of ascension that have a more progressive method of achievement, and may find a place in some DM's games in BR, but I only mention them to give background to support those who have mentioned other ways of ascension.

In Dark Sun they have a path to ascend that is plotted through defilement magic with ascension/transformation into the Dragons of Dark Sun that is a part of the process of becoming a Priest King for one of the cities of Dark Sun. The forces of good and nature have their own with the magic of preserver magic, which allows the ascension/transformation into a Avangion. It is a path to a sort of divinity in Dark Sun.

In a real old school twist, the world of Mystara has a very straight if difficult and epic pathway to divinity that most often requires a sponsor and the creation of an item of artifact level that is part of the ascension process. It is allowed, although I have yet to meet someone who has RPG'd it to the final conclusion. Becoming a deity.

For myself, while it is possible to ascend in a couple of ways, I will always favor a form of semi PC retirement that allows the PC to operate from behind the scenes, which in the BR game may mean that one of the PC's offspring have taken up the mantel and the Ruler simply takes a more circumspect and secretive role in the ruling of a region.

Just ideas....

Later