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  1. #1
    Ehrshegh of Spelling Thelandrin's Avatar
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    The Baron of Diemed

    The original Birthright materialcasts Heirl Diem as the current Baron of Diemed. Now, considering that his line follows a direct line back to Diem, first Duke of Diemed, and that even his recent ancestors were dukes, why is the Baron a baron?

    Whilst pottering around the wiki, I also noticed that the Baron is described as Duke of Diemed in several places, notably on his own page.

    So, what is going on? Why is Heirl Diem a baron, why wasn't this duchy/barony confusion explained anywhere and why do some people clearly feel that he is a duke, in contravention of the source material?

  2. #2
    Its probably player written material, but I read somewhere that Diem self-demoted himself for his families humiliation in losing the Roesone and Medeore territories.
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  3. #3
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    I had always simply thought that he is BOTH a Duke and a Baron.

    While he goes publicly by the title of Baron (over his ancestral lands...which amount to a Barony) he is still a Duke over the entire region of Medeore, Ilien and Roesone. Since he doesn`t hold his ancestral lands, he only uses the title of Baron of Deimed since he rules the Barony of Deimed as well as being the Duke of Deimed.

    Only solution I came up with with the contradictions.


    --- fiftyone <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
    > Its probably player written material, but I read somewhere that Diem self-demoted himself for his families humiliation in losing the Roesone and Medeore territories.
    Last edited by Thelandrin; 07-25-2007 at 09:39 AM. Reason: Please remove advertising puff before posting.

  4. #4
    There is no doubt that the Diemed line is a Duchy, but like mentioned before, much, about half, of his lands were lost. An interesting thing I discovered is that a current General of Diem is actually the legal Baron of Medoere. Perhaps, he claims the title of Baron simply because no acting Barons are underneath him (only counts). So in practicality, he is a Baron over counts. Now if he reclaims a portion of his lands, or appoints a Baron over some provinces, he could legally enforce a claim to his Duke title.

    I think that the official title of Duke of Diemed, however, can not be lost, as it descends from an appointment of the First Reole, and is unbroken since then. It must be a matter of choice, since the title of Duke of Diemed would not be lost, as long as some portion of the realm remained and the family survived.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Thelandrin View Post
    The original Birthright materialcasts Heirl Diem as the current Baron of Diemed. Now, considering that his line follows a direct line back to Diem, first Duke of Diemed, and that even his recent ancestors were dukes, why is the Baron a baron?

    Whilst pottering around the wiki, I also noticed that the Baron is described as Duke of Diemed in several places, notably on his own page.

    So, what is going on? Why is Heirl Diem a baron, why wasn't this duchy/barony confusion explained anywhere and why do some people clearly feel that he is a duke, in contravention of the source material?
    There are a few of us who feel that he is rightly a King, as Diemed is an independent state, sovereign and unchallenged. Just my two cents, but that, and the fantasy (illogical) heraldy of the setting are my only real beefs with classic Birthright: if you rule your nation, and you're a Duke or a Baron, crown yourself King, order new stationary, and get on with your life.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Jaleela's Avatar
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    Counts/Earls are of a higher rank than a Baron.

    I don't think that any Duke in their right mind would lower themselves to a lesser rank because they lost land. Only a ruler of a higher rank than the Duke himself, and to one which he was actually a vassal, could do that.

    Strikes me that Edward IV did that to John Neville during the War of the Roses.

  7. #7
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    Anuirean Noble ranks are different than what most European Noble ranks were...


    --- Jaleela <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
    > Counts/Earls are of a higher rank than a Baron.
    >
    > I don`t think that any Duke in their right mind would lower themselves to a lesser rank because they lost land. Only a ruler of a higher rank than the Duke himself, and to one which he was actually a vassal, could do that.
    >
    > Strikes me that Edward IV did that to John Neville during the War of the Roses.
    Last edited by Thelandrin; 07-26-2007 at 08:09 AM. Reason: Again, please remove advertising fluff before posting.

  8. #8
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    The Diem family could have lost rank if the main branch of the family died out and was replaced by a cadet branch or new family entirely. Although still rulers of a duchy the family might then have a lower title. Alternatively if the major players mocked Diem by using a lesser rank after Roesone and Medoere broke free then the title baron may simply be used everywhere outside Diemed - and never within.

    In practice, as with Ghoere, the typical peasant/goodman will bow and say at the least a deferential 'milord' while the peers of the baron of Diemed will address him/her based on mutual need, fear and respect.

    Titles can also be impacted by whether or not a effective order of heralds still exists after the fall of the empire, whether the ruler wants to 'drop out' of the Anuirean standard nobility as Aerenwe did and simply choose a better title, etc. If the heralds are seen as the keepers of the nobility then they might be able to block the assumption of a title with a reasonable excuse, if there are no effective heralds then the only thing stopping everyone using whatever title they like is peer pressure. Boeruine would probably oppose casual title creep, as might Mhoried who is equally as traditional. Avan's reaction would depend on his self interest, while Ghoere would oppose anyone who might claima superior title or stop Ghoere claiming himself a Duke or suchlike.

    It is likely that most Anuriean nobles or rank have a list of titles as long as their arm, with only the one most commonly used presented in the books. So Avan for example may be 'first duke of the 4th legion, High lord of the Western Sea, Count of Pederpont' etc in addition to prince of Avanil...

    I recall a discussion shortly after the wiki launched about Diem's titles and think it had a fair excuse for the changes in titles.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    The Diem family could have lost rank if the main branch of the family died out and was replaced by a cadet branch or new family entirely. Although still rulers of a duchy the family might then have a lower title. Alternatively if the major players mocked Diem by using a lesser rank after Roesone and Medoere broke free then the title baron may simply be used everywhere outside Diemed - and never within.
    The dying out of the family doesn't really make sense, as seeing how other examples of nobility, Prince Avan of Avanil, for instance, claims the title of Prince from descent of the Reole line. Traditionally, only members of the royal family could claim the title of Prince. (The family is extinct, so obviously indirect family members who assume power can claim the original title.)

    Diem's line hasn't been broken, Heirl Diem is a direct ancestor of the man who fought at Deismaar. In the original books, Diemed is acknowledged as one of the Duchies.

    In theory, all Dukes could lay claim on the Iron Throne, being the "highest" ranking nobles in Anuire, and theoritically closest to the old imperial family. The regent of Diem could claim Baron to emphasize no interest upon the Iron Throne, or to avoid offending nearby Avanil. Irregardless, Diem should be a Duchy, as acknowledged in the core books, and simply omit the part of Baron to avoid confusion such as this post.

  10. #10
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thelandrin View Post
    So, what is going on? Why is Heirl Diem a baron, why wasn't this duchy/barony confusion explained anywhere and why do some people clearly feel that he is a duke, in contravention of the source material?
    No one had has explained the confusion because no one has yet written an explanation of the confusion and offered solutions. This is exactly the kind of thing that a reader can develop him or herself.

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