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Thread: Dwarf Paladin

  1. #1
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    I have one suggestion for Variant: Paladins as new classes for Paladins of Moradin in Chapter 1 instead of gaining the ability to summon a small earth elemental for a number of rounds per day equal to his charisma modifier, minimum of 1. I think maybe is better to have skill increase for 2
    Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int bonus) x 4.
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int bonus.
    Because Dwarfs are skilled craftsmen and it is analog with rule that Paladins of Moradin may freely multiclass as fighters or experts, but not both, without losing their ability to advance as a paladin.
    Vosgaard's Veliki hrast.

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    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    The summon earth elemental was something brought up over a year ago IIRC and was generally seen as favorable, once toned down some.

    I think these are some links to discussions on classes (might have missed the pertinant one on dwarven paladins though - there was a lot of discussion).

    http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...showtopic=2363

    http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...showtopic=2674

    http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...showtopic=2317


    As far as getting more skill points, wouldn't that be the purpose of the freely multiclass concept since experts get more skill points than do paladins? 6 vice 2. So it is inherently included in this already.
    Duane Eggert

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    Seems like a good house rule. Low skill points are always a bit more painful in BR. Seems balanced. Fits thematically too. And earth elementals might not fit the mood of your dwarves. Never particularly liked elementals myself...

    Interesting idea.

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    Thanks,
    I never liked to see Summoning and Outsiders in Birthright.
    Vosgaard's Veliki hrast.

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    Heck, i dont even like elementals in regular D&D. Always seemed a bit bland and overly generic to me. Rather flavorless fire/water/earth/air things. Magic should have more Pop and flair

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    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    The reason the suggested idea is largely favoured is because a paladin is able to summon a steed, which would be awkward for dwarves... And you have to agree that extra skill points seem more flavourless than the ability to summon a creature of pure earth for a nearly stone-made race.

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    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    And in 3.5 the special mount is handled substantially different than in previous versions:

    from the SRD:

    Special Mount (Sp): Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin gains the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil (see below). This mount is usually a heavy warhorse (for a Medium paladin) or a warpony (for a Small paladin).

    Once per day, as a full-round action, a paladin may magically call her mount from the celestial realms in which it resides. This ability is the equivalent of a spell of a level equal to one-third the paladin’s level. The mount immediately appears adjacent to the paladin and remains for 2 hours per paladin level; it may be dismissed at any time as a free action. The mount is the same creature each time it is summoned, though the paladin may release a particular mount from service.

    Each time the mount is called, it appears in full health, regardless of any damage it may have taken previously. The mount also appears wearing or carrying any gear it had when it was last dismissed. Calling a mount is a conjuration (calling) effect.
    Should the paladin’s mount die, it immediately disappears, leaving behind any equipment it was carrying. The paladin may not summon another mount for thirty days or until she gains a paladin level, whichever comes first, even if the mount is somehow returned from the dead. During this thirty-day period, the paladin takes a –1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls.


    A paladin’s mount is treated as a magical beast, not an animal, for the purpose of all effects that depend on its type (though it retains an animal’s HD, base attack bonus, saves, skill points, and feats).

    Also from the SRD:

    Conjurations bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or some form of energy to you (the summoning subschool), actually transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling) . .
    Now the summon monster spell (which calls elementals). . .

    Summon Monster I
    Conjuration (Summoning) [see text]
    Level: Brd 1, Clr 1, Sor/Wiz 1
    Components: V, S, F/DF
    Casting Time: 1 round
    Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
    Effect: One summoned creature
    Duration: 1 round/level (D)
    Saving Throw: None
    Spell Resistance: No
    This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.

    The spell conjures one of the creatures from the 1st-level list on the accompanying Summon Monster table. You choose which kind of creature to summon, and you can change that choice each time you cast the spell.

    A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities. Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them.
    When you use a summoning spell to summon an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type.
    Arcane Focus: A tiny bag and a small (not necessarily lit) candle.


    Note that it resides on the celestial realms (re: plane) and is a magical creature. As I read it the essential difference between the summoning and calling subschools are that the calling brings a specific creature while the summoning brings a generic one (i.e., not the same one every time). But otherwise the two are prettymuch identical (which is why they are the same school after all).


    Also from the SRD:

    Elemental Type: An elemental is a being composed of one of the four classical elements: air, earth, fire, or water.
    Features: An elemental has the following features.
    —8-sided Hit Dice.
    —Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (as cleric).
    —Good saves depend on the element: Fortitude (earth, water) or Reflex (air, fire).
    —Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.
    Traits: An elemental possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
    Darkvision out to 60 feet.
    —Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, and stunning.
    —Not subject to critical hits or flanking.
    —Unlike most other living creatures, an elemental does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an elemental is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an elemental. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection, to restore it to life.
    —Proficient with natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
    —Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) that it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Elementals not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Elementals are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
    —Elementals do not eat, sleep, or breathe.

    Magical Beast Type: Magical beasts are similar to animals but can have Intelligence scores higher than 2. Magical beasts usually have supernatural or extraordinary abilities, but sometimes are merely bizarre in appearance or habits.
    Features: A magical beast has the following features.
    —10-sided Hit Dice.
    —Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter).
    —Good Fortitude and Reflex saves.
    —Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.
    Traits: A magical beast possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
    —Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision.
    —Proficient with its natural weapons only.
    —Proficient with no armor.
    —Magical beasts eat, sleep, and breathe.



    IMO one of the main reasons that paladins of Nesire didn't get mounts in 2nd ed was that it didn't fit very well, since once the mount was found it stayed around forever (i.e., it wasn't summoned) - so if a character went into a dungeon or on a ship for an extended period of time - the mount had to wait outside until the character came back - very awkward and difficult to handle. In 3.5 the mount is basically "stored" on the celestial plane until needed, so really there is no reason that paladins of nesire or moradin couldn't use the standard paladin mount ability. The basic difference would be how much use would the paladin get from the mount - since the mount is one of the more substanital benefits a paladin gets. Also the info on alternate mounts is not in the core books so some other book, issue of Dragon (IIRC) or something else would have to be used to come up with a substitute (more suitable) mount.
    Duane Eggert

  8. #8
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    Dwarf Paladin

    At 11:44 AM 6/16/2005 +0200, RaspK_FOG wrote:

    >The reason the suggested idea is largely favoured is because a paladin is
    >able to summon a steed, which would be awkward for dwarves... And you have
    >to agree that extra skill points seem more flavourless than the ability to
    >summon a creature of pure earth for a nearly stone-made race.

    Summoning extra-planar creatures is problematic in BR for three main
    reasons. The first has to do with the nature true magic and the various
    ways that theme interacts with character class. Though there are divine
    summonings (and the paladin class is definitely divine) the ability to
    summon a steed is probably best associated to the arcane spell _Mount_. Of
    course, that spell is a 1st level wiz/sor spell, so it wouldn`t qualify as
    true magic, but the more powerful (and scaling) system of paladin`s
    warhorse special ability is probably 3rd level and up if one were using a
    progressive system of magic, which would make the ability an exception to
    the arcane magic restrictions of the setting. There are divine summoning
    spells for elemental creatures, so a dwarven ability to summon an elemental
    is less of a problem in this regard, but since the ability itself appears
    to be more arcane than divine it seems incongruent for character classes
    specific to the BR setting to employ a special ability that has
    questionable characteristics in relation to the BR specific themes.

    Even with the arcane aspect of magic in BR in consideration there is also
    the problem of extra-planar creatures in the setting, which are often
    avoided or, more accurately, made unique campaign themes rather than
    general class abilities. My opinion is that this is related to the basic
    planar structure of the campaign, where Aebrynis is meant to be "cut off"
    from the rest of the standard D&D cosmology by the Shadow World which acts
    as a buffer between the world and the rest of the planes of
    existence. Where one can see a divinely summoned warhorse as being
    something more closely rooted to the material plane an elemental is
    particularly extra-planar, so is a bit difficult to jibe with the
    "isolated" nature of the BR setting.

    The last thematic problem with summoning for paladins has to do with the
    general "magical" nature of the setting being ramped up a bit. That is, if
    paladins have a magical ability to *poof* a large creature into existence
    with nary an "abracadabra" it does give the setting a very particular kind
    of odor, if you will. From a role-playing standpoint, I`ve imagined that
    the summoning of a paladin`s warhorse is meant to be like the Lone Ranger
    (who is probably really a paladin in D&D terms--which is funny because
    another Western TV show called "Paladin" features a character who is
    probably really more of a D&D ranger) whistling for his trusty mount Silver
    who inexplicably comes galloping around a nearby tree, boulder, out of a
    nearby barn, etc. and when not called upon is banished to the benign and
    safe dimension called "Off-camera." Silver doesn`t just *poof* into or out
    of existence per se, but his appearances and exits are part of the "magic"
    of television editing and the audience`s suspension of
    disbelief. Unfortunately, the ability doesn`t really read like that in the
    D&D materials, and even if one does interpret the process as being more
    like the Lone Ranger calling on Silver than a wizard pulling a rabbit out
    of a hat, the whole process has a sort of campy vibe that I`ve associated
    (much to the chagrin of other BR community posters) with Forgotten Realms
    in the past. It just doesn`t really fit into the BR themes very well. BR
    tends to be darker and more rational than other, more high magic
    settings. Nobody bats an eye at a character summoning a mount in FR, but
    in BR it is a more startling ability. BR paladins are darker and of
    questionable morality since they are dedicated to (sometimes quite violent)
    gods with different than the standard alignments and spheres, so a white
    horse appearing in either a magical shower of flickering lights or by
    galloping around the corner doesn`t really jibe, and it gets even weirder
    if the creature that arrives is a giant, stoney humanoid.

    In the original BR materials the ability to summon a warhorse was traded
    off for paladin`s of Nesirie, so there is precedent for swapping this
    particular ability out. Personally, I find the whole 2 hour/level
    "summoning" of the warhorse to be a bit of a stretch and prefer to simply
    allow paladins to "call" their warhorse as the class originally did,
    because that avoids all of the above aspects of the issue and is more
    easily associated with things like the Leadership feat, so it should be
    dropped for all BR paladins. I`d also prefer if the religious aspect of BR
    dwarves was simply reflected by allowing them to freely multi-class as both
    fighters and clerics rather than giving them their own paladin class--which
    is not really indicated anywhere in the original BR materials, and whose
    appearance in the update has yet to be very well explained. That would
    avoid the whole issue, give them the ability to perform very similar
    abilities to paladins using feats and their turning ability, maintain
    parity with the original materials, and better reflect most of the
    methodology that was expressly used to create the update in the first place.

    Gary

  9. #9
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    Dwarf Paladin

    If one has access to some of the really old Lone Ranger stuff, he and
    Tonto actually *quested" for a mysterious horse (my dad kept some of his old
    45rpm LR records-- and some of it has stayed with me). Were I to ever DM a
    paladin, that`s the model I would rather use.

    In a message dated 6/16/05 9:07:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
    geeman@SOFTHOME.NET writes:

    << From a role-playing standpoint, I`ve imagined that
    the summoning of a paladin`s warhorse is meant to be like the Lone Ranger
    (who is probably really a paladin in D&D terms--....

    In the original BR materials the ability to summon a warhorse was traded
    off for paladin`s of Nesirie, so there is precedent for swapping this
    particular ability out. >>

    I concur with those who would swap out the Mount ability for Nesirie and
    Moradin paladins. {On a side note, I wouldn`t mind the option to swap it out
    for any paladin, it ties them almost solely to the armor-and-lance model for
    my tastes}
    I don`t really like elementals, either, so if I ran a dwarf game, I`d try
    to find something else, too.

    Lee.

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    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    Dwarf Paladin

    At 11:47 AM 6/16/2005 -0400, Lee wrote:

    > I concur with those who would swap out the Mount ability for Nesirie
    > and Moradin paladins. {On a side note, I wouldn`t mind the option to
    > swap it out for any paladin, it ties them almost solely to the
    > armor-and-lance model for my tastes}
    > I don`t really like elementals, either, so if I ran a dwarf game, I`d
    > try to find something else, too.

    Personally, I like the ability to quest for a warhorse (or otherwise gain
    one through something like the Leadership feat) as a more generic ability
    rather than specific to the paladin class. One can, for instance, easily
    picture a ranger having the kind of relationship with his mount that is
    often associated with paladin`s, and not every "holy warrior" character
    need necessarily have a mount as the paladin class describes.

    Gary

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