View Poll Results: Should units be allowed to stack?

Voters
18. You may not vote on this poll
  • 1. No

    7 38.89%
  • 2. Yes – no limit/restriction

    0 0%
  • 3. Yes - but there is a limit (basis TBD, e.g., an absolute maximum or based on unit type/muster cost)

    2 11.11%
  • 4. Yes – but only units with a hero in them (no limit)

    0 0%
  • 5. Yes – Limited by ranks in Warcraft skill (specifics TBD, e.g. 1 unit for every 5 ranks, etc.)

    4 22.22%
  • 6. Yes – Commander makes a Warcraft check whenever attempting to stack units

    2 11.11%
  • 7. Other – please specify

    2 11.11%
  • 8. Abstain

    1 5.56%
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  1. #1
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Another issue to help work out details for battlefield events and conduct.
    Duane Eggert

  2. #2
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    I voted for based on ranks but I like the concept of a skill check too. It is just easier/quicker to handle something when it is based on ranks.
    Duane Eggert

  3. #3
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    I voted for other. I support it being based on Ranks, but it also has to be modified by by the training of the units. NO matter how good the general, the ability of the army to perfrom will be modified by the quality of his troops. And of course this could mean an army with a poor general leading elite soldiers could still do some interesting manuevers.
    Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

  4. #4
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by The Jew@Mar 4 2005, 09:02 AM
    I voted for other. I support it being based on Ranks, but it also has to be modified by by the training of the units. NO matter how good the general, the ability of the army to perfrom will be modified by the quality of his troops. And of course this could mean an army with a poor general leading elite soldiers could still do some interesting manuevers.
    This a is a good reason to go with a skill check instead. Modifers to the check could include circumstance modifiers for number of units in the stack, morale of the unit (or amount of training), etc.

    There is a finite number a ranks a non-epic character can have (23) so there is a built-in limit to the number of troops that can be stacked if using ranks.

    One thing to be careful of is to not get too bogged down with the details so that the system becomes unwieldy. So a certain amount of abstractness is necessary.
    Duane Eggert

  5. #5
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    Originally posted by irdeggman+Mar 4 2005, 11:07 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (irdeggman @ Mar 4 2005, 11:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-The Jew@Mar 4 2005, 09:02 AM
    I voted for other. I support it being based on Ranks, but it also has to be modified by by the training of the units. NO matter how good the general, the ability of the army to perfrom will be modified by the quality of his troops. And of course this could mean an army with a poor general leading elite soldiers could still do some interesting manuevers.
    This a is a good reason to go with a skill check instead. Modifers to the check could include circumstance modifiers for number of units in the stack, morale of the unit (or amount of training), etc.

    There is a finite number a ranks a non-epic character can have (23) so there is a built-in limit to the number of troops that can be stacked if using ranks.

    One thing to be careful of is to not get too bogged down with the details so that the system becomes unwieldy. So a certain amount of abstractness is necessary. [/b][/quote]
    There are two critical factors in determining army strength, quality of soldiers and quality of leadership. I don&#39;t think giving attention to both is getting "bogged down". I support a combination of ranks and troop quality because the units will have already trained for this manuever, and so will know exactly how effective they can be. Maybe a warcraft check would be appropriate if they try to form together from two individual units during battle, but maybe not. Formations are beaten into soldiers, and if they are not then that is a sign of poor generalship.
    Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

  6. #6
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    I agree with you totally - I live in a large military community (largest military composition in the world).

    I only meant not to bog down with too many details, specific limits based on quality of unit (training), size of unit (type - mounted units take up more space than archers), specifics of commander, etc.

    That was why I pointed out the skill check mechanic. The 3.5 system of adding modifiers to a skill check easily accounts for this - as I mentioned the circumstance modifers based on training and unit type - the commander being reflected in the check itself (includes natural ability and training {i.e., ranks}).

    I specifically didn&#39;t try to list all of the modifiers to the skill check becasue that is something we can work out later, if that is the method decided on.

    Also an additional skill check during battle (whenever damage is received) wouldn&#39;t be uncalled for. This would be reflecting the keeping formation style of performance. But that is something else that can be decided later.
    Duane Eggert

  7. #7
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    I voted for no stacking of units. I feel that there should only be one unit per battle square, much as a character occupies a single 5x5 square on the tactical map. Units would come into base to base contact, but neither should be able to occupy the same space.

    KISS -- Keep It Simple, Sheesh&#33;
    "It may be better to be a live jackal than a dead lion, but it is better still to be a live lion -- and usually easier."

    - R. A. Heinlien, from The Collected works of Lazarus Long

  8. #8
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    I voted for no stacking of units. I feel that there should only be one unit per battle square, much as a character occupies a single 5x5 square on the tactical map. Units would come into base to base contact, but neither should be able to occupy the same space.

    KISS -- Keep It Simple, Sheesh&#33;
    This has a strong appeal to me, too, largely for the simplicity factor and its identity with the 3.5 combat system.

    In such a case, I would want the battlefield to be much larger than 3x5, and missile units to have longer ranges than in the old system.

  9. #9
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    Warcards don`t use facing (nor does 3e+, of course) but I found when it

    comes to large scale combat the lack of facing really screwed with my sense

    of realism. I have a similar problem with it at the adventure level of

    combat, but when it comes to the formation, line of fire, ability to

    flank/surround or otherwise maneuver to gain an advantage when it comes to

    angle of attack, and the way troops move on the battlefield, not having a

    facing on the units on the battlefield just didn`t work for me. So I added

    it back in, and came up with some simple rules for handling facing at the

    large scale combat level to replace the adventure level flanking rules in

    3e. After some playtesting these rules worked surprisingly well.



    I mention that in this thread because I also allowed units to stack within

    a battlesquare. I went with 100` x 100` battlesquares and 100 man

    units. Since the size of the battlesquare (four hundred 5` x 5` squares)

    and the size of units worked out so well, I allowed up to four units to

    stack in a square. (Actually, I have a unit size value that determines how

    many units can fit in a square, but we needn`t get into that for

    now. Suffice it to say four medium-sized infantry can fit in one

    battlesquare.) That means that if one uses facing then four units can fit

    in a single battlesquare each facing in another direction to create a sort

    of Napoleonic square. It struck me as a nice ancillary benefit of the

    system that one could create a defensive, four company "unit" on the

    battlefield that way.



    In any case, when it comes to whether or not units can stack in a

    battlesquare I think the issue is really twofold. First of all, it depends

    on the size of the units in question. Imagine, for instance, the

    difference between units of cavalry and units of infantry, or units of

    ogres vs units of humans. One is either imagining the size of the units

    scaling up or down with the size of the creatures that make it up, or the

    size of the battlesquare is large enough to occupy larger units.



    That said, even if one doesn`t allow stacking there are situations in which

    stacking will still necessarily occur in one way or another. What happens,

    for example, when magic is employed on the field to allow for aerial

    troops, or if units occupy structures like ships or siege towers that have

    decks/floors to accommodate more than one unit. Unless those

    ships/structures are going to occupy more than a single battlesquare

    there`s going to be some sort of stacking of the units.



    Gary

  10. #10
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    That said, even if one doesn`t allow stacking there are situations in which
    stacking will still necessarily occur in one way or another. What happens,
    for example, when magic is employed on the field to allow for aerial
    troops, or if units occupy structures like ships or siege towers that have
    decks/floors to accommodate more than one unit. Unless those
    ships/structures are going to occupy more than a single battlesquare
    there`s going to be some sort of stacking of the units.
    I don&#39;t think any single ship should hold more than 1 active fighting company of troops - if there are others stowed belowdecks, fine - but I have a hard time imagining a galleon having active fighting room for more than 200 men at a time. A ship that big has a lot of crew, who need to be able to move around the ship to keep it sailing properly, and deal with any damage she takes.

    Likewise, no single level of a tower could hold 200 fighting archers. A decent section of a wall (with one or more towers) could.

    A 200-man company is a pretty large unit size IMO. 100 men or les is much more managable. But BR&#39;s whole recruiting/unit system is built on the 200-man assumption, so I&#39;m going to stick with it for a BR battlesystem.

    Larger companies = more abstract and generalized battlesystem. Which is why longer battle turns make some sense.

    Non-stacking w/ facing works much better with regular unit shapes (square for warcards). It may not look quite as authentic as a rectangle for a typical infantry company, but it&#39;s so much easier to use a battlesystem resembling D&D with a square grid.

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