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  1. #1
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Here is the latest version of Chap 1. This is the final round of comments before a sanctioning vote.

    Here is a summary of changes since the last version:

    Editing notes:
    - space paragraphs out more; especially those that change the topic
    - the humane bonus should read "on [______] saves" not "to".
    - pg 23, 2nd column: the listing of cross-class skill for "Admin." should be "cc"
    - pg 27, Discipline: "Fortitude and Will"
    - pg 29, Northener: change "You gain a +1 bonus on all Fortitude saves. You gain an additional +4 bonus on all Fortitude saves to resist subdual damage from cold and exposure). You must suffer subdual damage equal to at least one quarter of your current hit points before becoming fatigued from frostbite or hypothermia." to "You gain a +1 bonus on all Fortitude saves and an additional +4 bonus on Fortitude saves to avoid taking nonlethal damage from exposure to cold weather. You only get fatigued by nonlethal damage from exposure to cold weather if that nonlethal damage equals at least one quarter of your hit points."
    - pg 30, Plainsrider: "Wild Empathy, Handle Animal, Heal, and Ride"
    - pg 30, Regional Arms Focus: "Region: Any"; "Special" line explains it.
    - pg 30, Regional Arms Training: change to reflect format of Regional Arms Focus
    - pg 30, other "Regional [____]" feats: as above.
    - pg 31, Spellsong Mastery: avoid using caps for metamagicked spell names
    Incorporated

    Just a few typos:
    p8 under Character Classes
    "to more accurately their roles" needs the word reflect.
    p21 in Noble class influence
    "monetary assets is considered a simple favor when
    done in person that is the noble is physically present
    in his home province when this action is attempted." needs , ; or () to fix grammar.
    p31 Shadow Walker feat
    "winter nights. The risks of entering the shadow world
    are many, and this feat should be with exceptional
    care. The Shadow World is fraught with danger," needs word 'used' after 'be'.
    Incorporated

    Knowledge (nature ) should be added to the Sorcerer skill list, since it is the skill involved with source holdings.
    Incorporated

    Right now the Elite armor for Vos is Banded mail. The largest concentration of Barbarians is within vos, and I assume most Vos warriors are Barbarians. Barbarians do not get heavy armour proficiency and lose fast movement while wearing it. Why not make a medium or light armour the Elite armour. I would suggest either chainmail or chain shirt, which are commonly found in the region.
    Not incorporated. Elite is more in relation to an organized and trained militia or warrior (e.g., fighters) and neither are traits possessed by barbarians. Vos do have troops (which are more trained than groups of barbarians) and as such this is more applicable to organized units and the like.

    Regarding Knowledge (Bloodlore)

    Maybe a +2 bonus on Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft checks when dealing with Blooded items?, or magical items that effect Blood?
    Added a synergy description to this.

    I don't really have a problem with changing the +hp to +1 to AC. It does fit with the what the dwarven artisan feat does to weapons, as long as we add the same caveat to it, "this +1 doesn't stack with any enchancement bonus the item may have".
    Changed the description to reflect this.

    I also agree with you on the Knowledge (Shadow World) issue: we could specifically state in the skill description (which does not deviate from 3.5e rules, as it is campaign material) that 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (nature) grant a +2 bonus on Survival checks made while on Aebrynis and that Knowledge (Shadow World) grants a +2 bonus on Survival checks made while on the Shadow World.
    Added a synergy description for this and more detail under new knowledge skills to address the difference (and similarity) between Knowledge (Nature) and Knowledge (Shadow World)

    I pretty much left the noble alone. Osprey had some comments, but since no one else commented I felt that a single individual's comments (including my own at this time) didn't justify changes. I had asked if any one agreed with his comments, but no one else posted they did.


    Here is the pdf version
    Duane Eggert

  2. #2
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Here is the word version.
    Duane Eggert

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    As the regional feats are based off the FRCS, with the new revision in the Player'"s Guide to Faerun will the regional feats be modified to reflect the new mechanic or remain as is?

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    perfect it ain't, but good enough it is. Vote Vote Vote
    Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

  5. #5
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by The incredible, edible Phil@Jan 18 2005, 09:21 PM
    As the regional feats are based off the FRCS, with the new revision in the Player'"s Guide to Faerun will the regional feats be modified to reflect the new mechanic or remain as is?
    Remain as is. They are also based on the Wheel of Time so it is not totally either.
    Duane Eggert

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    Did they update Wheel of Time to 3.5 or did the license expire prior to that?

  7. #7
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Hey Folks,
    I'm reposting my comments on the Noble class here. They weren't all that easy for me to find, so I doubt many others were going back and looking at them either. I've read over my former comments again, and I still think they're pretty valid adjustments to make to the class. If others agree, please post and say so. If others disagree, please post and say so. Without voices of assent or dissent, it's hard to have any sense at all of group approval or opposition. Thanks!

    Osprey

    PS - I made bold the one change I feel most strongly about: higher levels of Coordinate are broken. I'm kinda tired of saying that, it seems so blatantly obvious to me, but if no one agrees with this the +4/6/8 Coordinate bonuses will stay on the Noble's class ability list. Is that what people want?

    Soome of you might be sick of the whole noble debate. I know I'm pretty tired of it, too. But let's make one final push of editing and improving, then kick the final sanctioning vote, OK? Onward with the BRCS!!!


    Concerning the Noble:

    For the most part, I think the class looks pretty good. While there are a lot of level-based class abilities, I think this is necessary (in terms of game balance) to make the class on par with other classes, and it gives a great deal of distinct flavor to the class. Rasp, if you wanted to see a "cleaner" list, all you have to do is take away all of the level-based improvements on existing abilities - these are what take up most of the upper-level slots.

    I do have a few comments, though.

    Inspiring Leader (Ex):* When a noble appears on the field and presents himself as a leader, it inspires himself and his followers, soldiers, hirelings, or other loyal subjects who can see and hear him. At 4th level, the noble and those that look to him for guidance (such as his employees, followers, or sworn subjects) gain a +1 morale bonus. This bonus can apply in one of the following methods (noble’s choice):
    · A +1 bonus to attack, weapon damage rolls and Will saving throws against fear and mind-influencing enchantments (such as charm person).
    · A +1 to Search, Spot, Listen checks and Reflex saving throws.
    · A +2 bonus to Spellcraft checks and all saving throws versus spells and spell-like effects.
    Presenting himself is a free action but entails standing tall and proud along with shouting (or forcefully giving) directions, and the bonuses last a number of rounds equal to the noble’s Charisma modifier. This ability may be used a number of times per day equal to the noble’s Charisma modifier.
    I would simplify this by dropping the last 2 choices for effects, and just add a +1 morale bonus to all skill checks, making it the same effect as inspire loyalty but w/ shorter duration. The skill bonuses seem rather odd - I wouldn't assume, for example, that most Anuirean nobles are particularly adept at aiding Spellcraft checks or in inspiring rather impressive resilience to magic. The bonus to mind-affecting magic, however, makes a lot of sense for a morale bonus, and a general +1 morale bonus to skill checks could cover Spellcraft, Spot, Listen, Search, or any other action-oriented skill (while non-action skills probably wouldn't benefit anyways due to the short duration of the effect; DM's can arbitrate this case-by-case).

    I also think that inspiring one's allies should be a standard action, much like a bard singing a song to grant similar effects. This forces the noble to choose between taking either a direct (active) role in the action, or exhorting greater efforts fromhis allies. It is the same for bards singing songs or spellcasters casting support spells, why make it different for nobles using a class ability? It is a classic dilemma for leaders on the battlefield, too (on a larger scale): Does he lead the charge personally, or does he direct the action from behind? Leading the charge is more inspiring and makes that unit more effective, but leading from behind allows him to better coordinate his forces as a whole.


    My second comment regards the increasing Leadership bonuses: a higher-level Noble's Leadership score will likely cap off at "25+" well before 20th level, especially if said character is a blooded regent. A high level Noble is almost guaranteed to have high Charisma (especially with the Presence class ability) and will probably have many of the conditional modifiers (special powers, great prestige, stronghold/base of operations).

    While the effect is definitely advantageous for mid-level characters, it might be prudent to simply keep Leadership as a bonus feat at 3rd level but drop the higher level bonuses. This will help unclutter the class abilities somewhat, and also encourage characters to improve their CHA scores and take feats like Great Leader if they want to increase their Leadership score more rapidly.

    Same goes for Coordinate: drop the higher-level improvements. This I've said before: higher bonuses get very broken because they are multiplied by the number of people aiding in the task. Also, dropping these higher bonuses will unclutter the list even more.

    Since most of the other class abilities continue to improve with class levels, I don't think you need to worry about the class lacking high-end desirability/power. Bonus feats, favored regions, resources, inspire loyalty, and presence all continue to improve at higher levels: more than enough to make the class attractive through all 20 levels of progression.

    [edit] Inspire Loyalty should use a Lead check rather than Diplomacy. If we're including the Lead skill in the BR setting, this certainly seems like a quintessential use of the skill. Inspiring crowds (esp. troops on a battlefield) should be the forte of the Lead specialist, while negotiations and etiquette should be the purview of the diplomat. It's important to distinguish these two, otherwise they overlap so much that having 2 seperate skills seems rather redundant and superficial.

    Otherwise, the class looks good: more balanced, attractive, and distinct than most other versions we've tried out.

    Osprey

  8. #8
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    I would agree with Osprey, the current buffing abilities do seem a tad strong when stacked against those of the Bard class who prides itself in those abilities.

  9. #9
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    Coordinate +4 and +8 are given on multiple line (7,8 and 16,17)

    Cap the coordinate bonus at +4, given at level 12 when no other bonus exists

    For leadership remove the bonuses at levels 7 and 15. Give a +1 at 11 and then +2 at 19. At level 11 it will still be worthwhile, and if a character has reached level 19 then they will soon be entering epic levels, where they can take epic leadership.
    Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

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    Administrator Arius Vistoon's Avatar
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    i agree with Osprev exept this
    Originally posted by Osprey@Jan 20 2005, 04:58 PM
    I also think that inspiring one's allies should be a standard action, much like a bard singing a song to grant similar effects. This forces the noble to choose between taking either a direct (active) role in the action, or exhorting greater efforts fromhis allies. It is the same for bards singing songs or spellcasters casting support spells, why make it different for nobles using a class ability? It is a classic dilemma for leaders on the battlefield, too (on a larger scale): Does he lead the charge personally, or does he direct the action from behind? Leading the charge is more inspiring and makes that unit more effective, but leading from behind allows him to better coordinate his forces as a whole.
    For me,
    it's very different ( Noble and bard ability )
    The one must do effort to be heard, it must find right melody for each circonstence that will motivate the others without that it some is conscience. It's a active action.

    The other, by his alone presence its "subjects" are more confiding. as the standards of the leaders on a battle field that to climb back up the morale of the troops.
    Lancelot or achille, did not need to do to hear itself to climb back up the morale of the troops (achille itself some to mock even), on the other hand the men had faith in them, and if it decide to quit battle moral decrease, it's a inactive action ( it's include in action of quit battle ).

    There is many literature examples or the hero do not need to do although this be to inspire courage and the determination. ..lancelot did not be a bard ! :P

    NB :
    page 26, regional feat
    highlander is for rjurik and Vos
    and page 29
    it's noted this
    Highlander [General]
    You come from the highlands of Rjurik.
    Regions: Rjurik
    this feat isn't for vos

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