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Thread: cultural titles

  1. #1
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    Lets look at the cultural titles in Anuire:
    Emperor
    Archduke
    Duke
    Baron
    Count
    Lord

    Should a baron (a title used in Germany since the 16th century for "Freiherr" meaning something as free lord) be lower than a count.

    and in Brechtür:
    Count
    King
    Duke
    Baron
    Baronet

    Here is the problem, that the count is above the king, but this is explained with the anuirean occupation.

    in Khinasi:
    King
    Emir
    Sultan
    Lord

    The sultan (corresponding with the duke or king) whose resonsibilities were much greater than the ones of an emir (corresponding with count) should be above him.

    in Vosgaard: O my god thats cruel
    Tsarevic
    Tsar
    Tsarevos

    Tsarevic means little tsar and should be under tsar.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    As I understand things, Baron as a title was almost definitely used by the English, and the barons were the major independant feudal lords of that realm.

    Besides, Bithright never claimed to be identical to its historical sources, though it does make it even more of a confusing mess, which is pretty OK given the confused state of modern Anuire. :huh:

    So has any original sourcebook ever explained why there are no kings in Anuire, yet there are Princes, and things called Royal as well as Imperial.

    Here's my theory, a piece of filled-in Andu history:

    The Andu were composed of a number of independent clans, and each was ruled by a King. Various wars and mutual enemies drove the the kings of the Andu to form pacts and alliances. But the early wars against the Sidhelien were fought mainly by 1 or 2 Andu kingdoms at a time, as each king tried to claim a seperate plot of Cerilian territory for himself. The onset of the great war against Azrai led the Andu to put aside their differences and unite under the banner of Haelyn and Roele (sons of the strongest of the Andu clans, Clan...?), the chosen champions of Anduiras. After Deismaar, Roele's task of uniting the Andu under a single ruler for all time was not without serious resistance from the surviving Andu kings and clans. But Roele's vision for Empire left no room for these proud kings and their eternal squabbles. To achieve unity, Roele had to crush the clans' independence and convince them that now they were Anuireans, first, last, and always. The title of King was abolished from the new Imperial strata of titles, though a son of the Emperor was still called a Prince, and the Imperial family still called royalty by many Anuireans.

  3. #3
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Actually my theory is that the titles chosen/used (prince Avan for example) were deliberately made in order to make an attempt at giving the impression of one's higher status. For Avan it definitely is an attempt at getting to the Irone Throne. the use of the title Baron was, especially overused throughout Anuire for this effect.

    It all reflects the chaos of the empire after the fall of Roele, and by doing that it works to the have the title be real fuzzy in their meaning.
    Duane Eggert

  4. #4
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    There are a variety of arguments that can be made here, but all of them are

    attempts to save the appearances of the publish materials (not a wholey

    unworthwhile excercise). At the root of things I suspect these changes are

    made just to make things a little different. Annoying different one might

    say. Frankly, I would prefer a wholey new system of titles to a real world

    one that has been fiddled with to try and create something familiar but with

    a twist.



    The arguments I refered to are these.

    1) We tend to look at the system of titles at the end and look backwards.

    If we pick a different spot on the time line as our reference, we get

    different results. If we pick the titles from the early middle ages as our

    guide (pre-Charlemagne) the title of count is pretty tiny, and baron and

    lord mean nothing specific applying to the great and small alike.



    2) Historical events alter the meanings of titles, as mentioned above, so

    that figures can have titles that are either too large or too small

    depending on what happened before the game started.



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

  5. #5
    Site Moderator Fearless_Leader's Avatar
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    Someone already mentioned it, but it is true that counts were generally higher than barons. However, this is not Europe, it's Cerilia. There are similarities to be certain, but they are not identical.

    The Brecht for example cannot simply be called "German" or Dutch." The Brecht are their own civilization with their own history and completely different influences.

    Also keep in mind that all the cultures mix and match concepts of real Earth cultures. No one culture is an exact duplicate of a real life culture.
    For example, take a look at the Khinasi titles. The Khinasi are generally thought of as being Arabic or Moorish, but Sultan is a Turkish title. On Earth, a Sultan was basically the Caliph/ Emperor of the Ottoman Empire. So if we were interested in true extrapolation from Earth to Cerilia, there should be no Khinasi Sultans.

    As far as I'm concerned, the similiarities between Earth and Cerilian cultures can only go so far - generally about as far as names and the sound of the language.

    I'd also like to reply to the comment made by Osprey about Andu kings. The general assumption by those of us working on the Atlas is that, yes, the Andu tribes were ruled over by kings until Roele forced/ cajoled/ asked them into submission.

  6. #6
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    but there is nothing that would prevent us frm saying theat "Linguisticly, XXX culture is patterned after YYY culture."
    "It may be better to be a live jackal than a dead lion, but it is better still to be a live lion -- and usually easier."

    - R. A. Heinlien, from The Collected works of Lazarus Long

  7. #7
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    I'd also like to reply to the comment made by Osprey about Andu kings. The general assumption by those of us working on the Atlas is that, yes, the Andu tribes were ruled over by kings until Roele forced/ cajoled/ asked them into submission.
    Neat! It's nice when intuition leads to a good place. B) ('Cause I can't remember reading that anywhere, just pulled hints and inspirations together for a little explanatory history .

  8. #8
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    As far as I know, Counts were above Barons due to their financial supremacy most of the time; a Baron is only below the King of the realm. I could be wrong, but that's what I remember.

  9. #9
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    Tsarevic in Russian is prince

    Tsar + (v)ic (Son of Tsar) ic is like Mc in Scotland or O in Ireland (Son of )
    So I think is wrong to Tsarevic be greater title then Tsar
    Vosgaard's Veliki hrast.

  10. #10
    Site Moderator Magian's Avatar
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    Mc is Scott? What is Mac?
    One law, One court, One allied people, One coin, and one tax, is what I shall bring to Cerilia.

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