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Thread: Human bonuses

  1. #1
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    ok the first topic i have ever started

    i have never liked humans gaining bonus skill points and feats especialy in birthright.

    when i run a game they don't gain anything but the fact that they are the dominante race and that they can go almost anywhere even into goblin lands. try sending your elf there.

    i do make a slight exception to this in that if a human begins with long life and chooses to be older thay can gain bonus skill points and a feat.

    does anyone else feel this way among the people i play with its about 50/50 for and against.
    MORNINGSTAR

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    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    The reason that humans get bonus feats and skill points is to blance them out power wise with the other races. If humans don't then they are at a severe disadvantage with the other races. They have nothing comparable to lowlight vison or darkvision. With the advent of 3.0 there are no longer level limits for calsses for races other than humans, this was one of the 'balancing' factors in 2nd ed so something else had to be added to replace it.

    If you don't give humans a bonus feat or skill points then you should really add a level adjustment to the demi-human races to make up for it.

    My opinion is that I don't agree with your system, but it is your system so you can do what you want as long as your players know what the restrictions/mechanics are before you implement them.

    What you have essentially tried to do is use a roleplaying system as a replacement for a game mechanic - something that is extremely hard to pull off and requires constant attention by the DM to ensure it works properly.

    This roleplaying logic is also something that leads to the more skills with age vice skills are tied into class level.
    Duane Eggert

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    I agree with irdeggman.The human traits are what give them their "Flava"It also made playing a human in second edition kinda fun.Hey whatever works for your group though.

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    i understand perfectly why humans are given the bonuses in the book i do not use it because it is stupid to have a 20 year old human with more skills than a 100 year old elf and yes it makes humans a little weaker in a strait fight but not by much.

    i give humans reaction bonuses and in game advantages

    a human can go most places and not be killed on site but an elf or dwarf cant

    also humans as a race are more capable due to the birthright enviroment of getting good reactions from people.

    plus the vast majority of people you encounter and nations are human

    these are all big advantages

    a game is supposed to be about roleplaying not my guy is stronger than yours
    yes an elf in my game has a few advantages like low light vision but the human gets big encounter bonuses

    it should be pointed out that only one person has played a non human in my game and the fava comes from your background and how you play the character not how meny feats you have
    MORNINGSTAR

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    it should be pointed out that only one person has played a non human in my game and the fava comes from your background and how you play the character not how meny feats you have
    If the flavor comes from the background and how you play the character, why adjust the mechanics at all? If the reason that you don't give extra skill points and feats to humans is that Elves have been around longer, why not tell the players of elf characters that they can just pretend they're more skilled? That should work just as well as doing it the other way around, and hamstringing humans.

    Now, the proper way in D&D to reflect the longer lifespans and greater skill of the older races would be to let them start at higher levels.

    The fact that humans gain extra skill points and a bonus feat is one of the main improvements in 3e over previous editions with regards to race balance.
    Jan E. Juvstad.

  6. #6
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Don't get so defensive, you asked for an opinion and you got one - I'm probably in agreement with that other 50% of your group.

    I don't understand why a dwarf can't go anywhere and not be killed in Cerilia, at least the same places that a human wouldn't be killed. Dwarves don't generally travel much or deal with outsiders, but they are mostly welcome everywhere, including elven realms.

    Halflings are welcome everywhere, that is they have no serious built-in animosity from/towards any of the other races.

    So, basically there is a not an even balance between humans and these two races. Elves (and half elves for that matter) would definitely, IMO, have encounter issues - even though the canon material has an extremely high, IMO, occurence of half-elf regents in human lands.

    Remember the logic in humans gaining these bonuses is their adaptability. It is generally thought, and I recall many articles (Dragon and the like) and other WotC/TSR books (I just can't recall the specific titles/locations right now) that talked about the fact that elves, due to their longevity have less of a drive to get things done quickly. Humans due to their short life and their inherent desire to change the environment to suit them do things quicker - hence the feat/skill bonuses.

    2nd ed material usually granted elves a bonus proficiency in singing or entertainment, to reflect their preoccupation with these things.

    I personnally favor having Birthright humans have a favored class based on their culture - Vos - barbarian, Anuirean - fighter (not cleric because of their affinity for nobility and leadership not the 2nd ed ability modifier), Brecht - rogue, Rjurik - ranger (almost druid, but there are not enough of them), Khinasi - wizard/magician (depending on whether or not the character is blooded) but this is something that was generally not well received and so didn't make it to the BRCS. Most thought it was too limiting for humans and that it took away their adapatability.
    Duane Eggert

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    i am not trying to get defensive i am trying to get my point across. i mean in relation to goblins and orogs with relation to dwarves and in the fact that humans are fairly xenophobic in general of other races.

    i have read all the excuses that they have given for humans having extras but that is what they are excuses.

    and if the flava comes from the background and it does why give humans bonuses to begin with.

    i dont see the humans as being hamstrung what realy powerfull bonus does an elf get none. they have low light vision big deal

    as it is humans and elves begin with the same amount of feats and skill points in my games which i see as being better for game ballance. now if someone wanted to play an ogre or something then we would still be talking levels as an ogre is a considerably more powerfull creature.
    MORNINGSTAR

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    Administrator Green Knight's Avatar
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    The 100 year old elf probably shouldn`t be of the same ECL as the 20

    year old human. That is the issue you`re addressing here, not what

    special abilities humans should have or not have.



    - The 20-year old human is a 1st level fighter with 10 INT and 12 skill

    points.



    - The 100-year old elf is a 4th level fighter/1st level sorcerer with

    INT 12 and 24 skill points.



    ...or something like that.



    -----Original Message-----

    From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion

    [mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of graham anderson

    Sent: 25. februar 2004 18:54

    To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM

    Subject: Re: Human bonuses [2#2296]



    This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

    You can view the entire thread at:

    http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...=ST&f=2&t=2296



    graham anderson wrote:

    i understand perfectly why humans are given the bonuses in the book i

    do not use it because it is stupid to have a 20 year old human with more

    skills than a 100 year old elf and yes it makes humans a little weaker

    in a strait fight but not by much.



    i give humans reaction bonuses and in game advantages



    a human can go most places and not be killed on site but an elf or

    dwarf cant



    also humans as a race are more capable due to the birthright enviroment

    of getting good reactions from people.



    plus the vast majority of people you encounter and nations are human



    these are all big advantages



    a game is supposed to be about roleplaying not my guy is stronger than

    yours

    yes an elf in my game has a few advantages like low light vision but

    the human gets big encounter bonuses



    it should be pointed out that only one person has played a non human in

    my game and the fava comes from your background and how you play the

    character not how meny feats you have



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    Bjørn
    DM of Ruins of Empire II PbeM

  9. #9
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    thats partly what i am getting at

    but i still dont agree with humans gaining the bonus abilities and no one has managed to explain to my satisfaction why they should have them except the obsesion some people have with power gaming and also the need to try and balance all the races(why). i also think that a bonus feet and skill points is worth a lot more than what most of the other races get making if anything humans overpowered.
    MORNINGSTAR

  10. #10
    Administrator Green Knight's Avatar
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    Elves are immortal for one...



    -----Original Message-----

    From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion

    [mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of graham anderson

    Sent: 25. februar 2004 19:49

    To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM

    Subject: Re: Human bonuses [2#2296]



    This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

    You can view the entire thread at:

    http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...=ST&f=2&t=2296



    graham anderson wrote:

    i am not trying to get defensive i am trying to get my point across. i

    mean in relation to goblins and orogs with relation to dwarves and in

    the fact that humans are fairly xenophobic in general of other races.



    i have read all the excuses that they have given for humans having

    extras but that is what they are excuses.



    and if the flava comes from the background and it does why give humans

    bonuses to begin with.



    i dont see the humans as being hamstrung what realy powerfull bonus

    does an elf get none. they have low light vision big deal



    as it is humans and elves begin with the same amount of feats and skill

    points in my games which i see as being better for game ballance. now if

    someone wanted to play an ogre or something then we would still be

    talking levels as an ogre is a considerably more powerfull creature.



    ************************************************** **********************

    ****



    Birthright-l Archives:

    http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
    Cheers
    Bjørn
    DM of Ruins of Empire II PbeM

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