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  1. #1
    Senior Member Trithemius's Avatar
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    > A question came up in my game and I am wondering how others, more

    > familiar with Birthright, would of ruled.

    > If your using the virtual guilds rule where high level sources can act

    > like low level guild holdings, and a player wants to put a land trade

    > route between two such source holdings, would such a trade route require

    > a road like a normal/regular land trade route?



    I believe that the rules say: yes, you do need a road to link the provinces.

    These rules are rather silly though, in my opinion. It requires the wizard`s traderoute to

    occupy an important "slot" in the other province, and it is very unlikely that the province

    with the level 7 source (I believe this is the required level) will be more than a rating 2

    province. Given that this traderoute slot could be otherwise used far more profitably (and

    thus, generate more taxable income!) it seems to me that it is ver unlikely that a ruler or a

    guilder would ever permit a wizard to create such a holding.



    I personally like the idea that the wizard has special knowledge of the provinces

    resources and can come down out of the mountains (or forest) with gems (or precious

    amber or something) and make money from it. I do not think, however, that the trade

    route mechanic is a good way of doing this. Better to be simple and say something like:

    A source of 7+ gives an income of 1GB per season in rare materials that the wizard is

    able to locate with his/her intimate knowledge of the area.

    Much clearer and simpler, IMO. And it does not irritate tax-hungry nobles or trade-hungry

    guilders, who can be induced through other means to make contributions to a wizard`s

    resources (gold-rush or death plague... whatever works ;))



    --

    John Machin

    (trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

    -----------------------------------------------------

    "Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

    -----------------------------------------------------

    - Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.
    John 'Trithemius' Machin
    The Other John From Dunedin (now in Canberra)
    "Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius

  2. #2
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    Imagine an elven realm with no guilds (there are many of those) or with guilds that are described as forest creatures and rangers, implying that they don't really trade. Imagine a 7/7 province. Imagine the elves making a LOT of money from those routes

    As for the roads etc, the source TRs need everything that normal TRs need.

  3. #3
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----

    From: "A_dark" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

    Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 7:32 AM





    > Imagine an elven realm with no guilds (there are many of those) or

    > with guilds that are described as forest creatures and rangers, implying

    > that they don`t really trade. Imagine a 7/7 province. Imagine the elves

    > making a LOT of money from those routes ;)



    Trading with who for what?



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

  4. #4
    Senior Member Trithemius's Avatar
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    A_dark:

    > Imagine an elven realm with no guilds (there are many of those) or with

    > guilds that are described as forest creatures and rangers, implying that

    > they don`t really trade. Imagine a 7/7 province. Imagine the elves

    > making a LOT of money from those routes ;)



    Imagine the sylvan sidhe as busy little plutocrats? No thanks. ;)



    --

    John Machin

    (trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

    -----------------------------------------------------

    "Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

    -----------------------------------------------------

    - Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.
    John 'Trithemius' Machin
    The Other John From Dunedin (now in Canberra)
    "Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius

  5. #5
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    John Machin schrieb:



    >A_dark:

    >

    >

    >> Imagine an elven realm with no guilds (there are many of those) or with

    >>guilds that are described as forest creatures and rangers, implying that

    >>they don`t really trade. Imagine a 7/7 province. Imagine the elves

    >>making a LOT of money from those routes ;)

    >>

    >>

    >Imagine the sylvan sidhe as busy little plutocrats? No thanks. ;)

    >--

    >John Machin

    >(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

    >

    The sidhelien certainly could make a lot of money if they wanted. If I

    recall the descriptions of elven chain mail or the elven platemail from

    2E AD&D which were highly priced and nowwhere to be bought but only to

    be had as a kings gift or something like that then they are as able

    craftsmen as the dwarves. But they do not sell those valuable goods. But

    even elven musical instruments would be highly sought in other lands so

    I do not understand that some want to see sidhelien realms totally free

    of guild holdings.

    bye

    Michael

  6. #6
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 05:59 PM 1/27/2004 +0100, Michael Romes wrote:



    >The sidhelien certainly could make a lot of money if they wanted. If I

    >recall the descriptions of elven chain mail or the elven platemail from

    >2E AD&D which were highly priced and nowwhere to be bought but only to

    >be had as a kings gift or something like that then they are as able

    >craftsmen as the dwarves. But they do not sell those valuable goods. But

    >even elven musical instruments would be highly sought in other lands so

    >I do not understand that some want to see sidhelien realms totally free

    >of guild holdings.



    Not to mention that elves have access to arcane magics which would likely

    make them the premier magic item manufacturers of Cerilia. (The various

    the temples might compete with them in this regard to a certain extent.)



    Gary

  7. #7
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    A mage who has a source like this can trade with other mages or priests and sell them components for magical items, mystilca, pseudo magical elixirs, or even actual potions, hallucinatory mushrooms, rare flowers, crystals from a sacred grove.... I can go on :P

    Source Trade Routes are described as small trading guilds (of 0 level). having them, hardly makes the elves plutocrats and money grubbers and it does not equate to a guild that sells timber outside of the elven woods.

    I too am of the opinion that guilds in elven lands should only exist under special circumstances. Eg in Coullabhie they are only allowed in 2 provinces, in khinasi lands, they are not actual guilds, Sielwode and Lluabright have none, if memory serves, and Fhileraene is too kind with human tresspassers :P.... Oh, Allanlaigh of Cwwmbh Bhein (whatever.... the vos elven realm) is also a softy

  8. #8
    Senior Member Trithemius's Avatar
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    Michael Romes:

    > But they do not sell those valuable goods.



    Exactly. Hard to be a plutocrat if you aren`t going to sell anything.



    > But even elven musical instruments would be highly sought in other lands so

    > I do not understand that some want to see sidhelien realms totally free

    > of guild holdings.



    I do not see the sale of the odd mastercrafted lute or harp as being on the

    same scale as the trade represented by the trade route mechanic.



    I would prefer to see such rare and expensive gifts done on a case by case

    basis. I do not see a great demand for 2,000 gp harps in most mortal realms; I

    do not see the sidhe lining up to produce them even if such a demand did exist.



    --

    John Machin

    (trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

    -----------------------------------------------------

    "Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

    -----------------------------------------------------

    - Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.
    John 'Trithemius' Machin
    The Other John From Dunedin (now in Canberra)
    "Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius

  9. #9
    Senior Member Trithemius's Avatar
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    Gary:

    > Not to mention that elves have access to arcane magics which would

    > likely make them the premier magic item manufacturers of Cerilia.

    > (The variousthe temples might compete with them in this regard to

    > a certain extent.)



    This assumes that the sidhe want to arm their former enemies, and that mortals

    wish to make use of queer sidhe artifacts. I am not entirely sure that this is

    entirely common.



    --

    John Machin

    (trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

    -----------------------------------------------------

    "Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

    -----------------------------------------------------

    - Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.
    John 'Trithemius' Machin
    The Other John From Dunedin (now in Canberra)
    "Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius

  10. #10
    Senior Member Trithemius's Avatar
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    A dark:

    > A mage who has a source like this can trade with other mages or priests

    > and sell them components for magical items, mystilca, pseudo magical

    > elixirs, or even actual potions, hallucinatory mushrooms, rare flowers,

    > crystals from a sacred grove.... I can go on :P



    I see. These routes are going to link to other mage`s sources then? Or are we

    assuming a vast number of mages in Cerilia, contrary to the previously

    established nature of the setting? Magical item trading might be feasible in

    the magic-rich Forgotten Realms, I do not think this is the same for Cerilia.



    I certainly oppose the idea of rare magical components becoming "just another

    commodity". I feel that my incredibly simplistic rules for income from sources

    (mentioned earlier) can represent lesser magicians approaching the source-

    holder for "foraging rights" as it were.



    In games I have overseen, I have had PC mages actively go out in search of

    clients to make magical items for, and they have made a good deal of money, at

    the cost of time (domain actions) and energy (RPs). I never saw any use in

    assuming that a trade-route worth of magical items flowed out of every large

    source in Cerilia. Magical items are too interesting to be treated so banally.



    > Source Trade Routes are described as small trading guilds (of 0 level).

    > having them, hardly makes the elves plutocrats and money grubbers and it

    > does not equate to a guild that sells timber outside of the elven

    > woods.



    I do not think that the sidhe would do this. Except possibly in rare cases,

    such as those you have mentioned.



    I theorise that perhaps the sidhe should gain some greater income from sources

    (possibly they should earn holding-based income like guilds?) to represent the

    use of magic in sidhelien economic activity. It mentions that sidhe make casual

    use of magic everyday, likening it to the use of water-wheels by mortals. I *do

    not*, however, think that this means that the sidhe have magical water-wheels.

    I hope you see the distinction I am trying to make.



    --

    John Machin

    (trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

    -----------------------------------------------------

    "Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

    -----------------------------------------------------

    - Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.
    John 'Trithemius' Machin
    The Other John From Dunedin (now in Canberra)
    "Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius

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