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Thread: Elven Rangers

  1. #1
    Caleb Chitwood
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    Elven rangers

    In the novel "Greatheart" which deals w/ the elves of the Seilwode, the
    issue of elven atheism in the face of direct proof of divinity is addressed.
    The general idea is that the strength of the humans beliefs in one
    particular god is strong enough to create the power to grant spells. In
    other words, the gods exist because the humans believe they exist. (At
    least, this is how I read it, if anyone else sees differently, I'd love to
    hear an alternate explanation) Anyway, perhaps elves use some of the same
    reasoning to explain how the rangers acquire spells. Maybe they believe
    that as one becomes more in tune w/ nature, one can begin to influence it in
    supernatural ways, and the strenth of that belief grants the spells.
    Considering the sometimes egotistical nature of elves, they might believe
    that the desire of all elven nations for the forest to be protected
    manifests itself as the spell abilities of the rangers which are its eternal
    guardians. Just a few ideas.. maybe they'll be a springboard for a more
    satisfactory solution.

    Caleb

  2. #2
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    Elven rangers

    Caleb Chitwood wrote:

    > In the novel "Greatheart" which deals w/ the elves of the Seilwode, the
    > issue of elven atheism in the face of direct proof of divinity is addressed.
    > The general idea is that the strength of the humans beliefs in one
    > particular god is strong enough to create the power to grant spells. In
    > other words, the gods exist because the humans believe they exist. (At
    > least, this is how I read it, if anyone else sees differently, I'd love to
    > hear an alternate explanation) Anyway, perhaps elves use some of the same
    > reasoning to explain how the rangers acquire spells. Maybe they believe
    > that as one becomes more in tune w/ nature, one can begin to influence it in
    > supernatural ways, and the strenth of that belief grants the spells.
    > Considering the sometimes egotistical nature of elves, they might believe
    > that the desire of all elven nations for the forest to be protected
    > manifests itself as the spell abilities of the rangers which are its eternal
    > guardians. Just a few ideas.. maybe they'll be a springboard for a more
    > satisfactory solution.

    I remember reading somewhere in the dusty past that priestly spells (I believe
    they were called clerical back then which might give you some idea how dated
    this is) of up to 4th level were gained in a process kind of like that of
    mages. That is, reflection and study, quiet meditation, etc. Their acquisition
    was not directly related to their faith except as a focus for the aforementioned
    reflection. It wasn't until 5th level spells come along that a direct
    connection to the cleric's god got involved, and at that level spells were
    granted through some intermediary force. The same for 6th level spells, but
    with a more powerful intermediary. Only 7th level spells were granted directly
    from the god being worshiped.

    My memory of this is fairly sketchy and I can't even recall where I read it, so
    take it with a grain of salt, but if it is correct (or if you just like the
    interpretation) then ranger (and paladin) spells need not be the result of
    something divine. Rather they can just be the result of the character's own
    will/belief.

    If a god should die, or there should be some sort of separation of the god from
    the worshipper, this could still work. The character's focus is gone, therefore
    he cannot acquire new spells even if these new spells would not have been
    granted by the deity Himself or his intermediaries.

    In the case of rangers, their focus could be on the ubiquitous and mystical
    forces of nature. As such, they gain a limited number of spells in a limited
    range of spheres. If something should come between the forces of nature and the
    ranger it would likely be something drastic enough to effect the character's
    class, turning him into a standard fighter, right?

    - -Gary

  3. #3
    Caleb Chitwood
    Guest

    Elven rangers

    Not neccessarily, I wouldn't think. Most definately it would warrant the
    loss of all spell-casting abilities and perhaps animal empathy as well as
    being a cause for great concern on the part of the ranger. But other ranger
    abilities would not suffer, such as tracking and move silently/hide in
    shadows, as they do not rely on any mystical force but rather knowledge and
    skill on the part of the ranger.

  4. #4
    The Olesens
    Guest

    Elven rangers

    Caleb Chitwood wrote:
    >
    > In the novel "Greatheart" which deals w/ the elves of the Seilwode, the
    > issue of elven atheism in the face of direct proof of divinity is addressed.
    > The general idea is that the strength of the humans beliefs in one
    > particular god is strong enough to create the power to grant spells. In
    > other words, the gods exist because the humans believe they exist.

    THe priests hanbook explains this through Philosophies (a type of spell
    granter, head of a religion). The idea gathers so much support (hey,
    like RP!!! and regency!!) that it is able to grant spells (and punish
    its priest, if they are bad)

  5. #5

    Elven rangers

    At 07:58 PM 6/23/98 -0400, Caleb Chitwood(calebc@vol.com)wrote:
    >
    >In the novel "Greatheart" which deals w/ the elves of the Seilwode, the
    >issue of elven atheism in the face of direct proof of divinity is addressed.
    >The general idea is that the strength of the humans beliefs in one
    >particular god is strong enough to create the power to grant spells. In
    >other words, the gods exist because the humans believe they exist. (At
    >least, this is how I read it, if anyone else sees differently, I'd love to
    >hear an alternate explanation) Anyway, perhaps elves use some of the same
    >reasoning to explain how the rangers acquire spells. Maybe they believe
    >that as one becomes more in tune w/ nature, one can begin to influence it in
    >supernatural ways, and the strenth of that belief grants the spells.
    >Considering the sometimes egotistical nature of elves, they might believe
    >that the desire of all elven nations for the forest to be protected
    >manifests itself as the spell abilities of the rangers which are its eternal
    >guardians. Just a few ideas.. maybe they'll be a springboard for a more
    >satisfactory solution.
    >

    It was with this reasoning, and the need for some form of socially relevant
    representation of this "faith" in nature, that I introduced a form of Elven
    Druid...although in reflection I should of used Shaman (from the Shaman's
    Handbook) instead. Just more food for thought.


    Sepsis, rtifft@usa.net

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    the road to survival or ruin.
    It is mandatory that it be thoroughly studied."
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    Just a thought that occured to me (I don't know whether anyone's talked about it before) - Cerillian elves can't get their heads around priestly magic, so they can't be priests.... but can they cast priest spells as rangers? surely not, but everyone loves an elven ranger right? to replace them with arcane spells seems a little over powerful. What do people think?
    Sgt. Froggatt

  7. #7
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    My answer would be to say that rangers don't use priestly magic, but instead something that comes from nature.

    Personally I like the division of magic into three distinct types as opposed to the trditional two. The additional one being Primordial magic, which comes from the reverence of nature, and is used by druids and rangers. Some people think this is the same as the magic force utilised by wizards and sorcerers, but I think of it more as coming from what is alive in the nature and can be accesed by tuning oneself to that.

    On a domain level I would have druids use sources instead of temples. This gives the druids a incentive to preserve nature, and to put them in opposition to the regular priests of nature gods.

    This might bring up the question on wheter to allow elves to be druids or not. Personally I think all races should be allowed to have druids as a remenant of their ancient beliefs that was much more common before the spread of civilization. I think goblin druids are a good source of intrigue a plot lines if one are looking for a non-human centred setting.

    Cheers,
    Don E

  8. #8
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Mr.Froggatt@Dec 15 2003, 11:43 AM
    Just a thought that occured to me (I don't know whether anyone's talked about it before) - Cerillian elves can't get their heads around priestly magic, so they can't be priests.... but can they cast priest spells as rangers? surely not, but everyone loves an elven ranger right? to replace them with arcane spells seems a little over powerful. What do people think?
    Using the distinction made in 3/3.5 ed rangers cast divine spells. This doesn't make them deity inspired/supplied but only a 'type' of magic, all magic is either arcane or divine per 3/3.5 - makes things simplier IMO.

    If you really wanted to 'avoid' the spell issue then use one of the options out there for non-spell casting rangers. Monte Cook had one published a long time ago and WotC put an example of one in the Complete Warrior book, there is also an example of a non-spell casting paladin there for those whomight be interested in one for paladins of Cuirecean.
    Duane Eggert

  9. #9
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Don E@Dec 15 2003, 12:11 PM
    This might bring up the question on wheter to allow elves to be druids or not. Personally I think all races should be allowed to have druids as a remenant of their ancient beliefs that was much more common before the spread of civilization. I think goblin druids are a good source of intrigue a plot lines if one are looking for a non-human centred setting.

    Cheers,
    Don E
    You could do that, but the 2nd ed Birthright made it very specific that there were no druids (per the class in the PHB) and that all druid-like priests were priest of Erik. This is something that is very significant and helps to explain why elves only had minor divine magic (that from being a ranger) instead of that of a druid (which is pretty substantial). If elves had access to all of that druidic magic then they would surely have defeated the humans a long time ago. I mean the elves already had access to greater magic (arcane) and humans didn't until after Deismaar. So if elves had both greater arcane magic and drudic magic then they would surely have run the humans off the continent.

    And why would goblins ever be druids? It doesn't make sense to me. Even the 'civilized' Cerilian goblins have no greater affinity for nature than their non-Cerilian counterparts. Again we would be back to the all druids are priests of Erik which would pretty much eliminate the average goblin from ever becoming a druid. Although if a goblin left his 'homeland' and become more human-like (for example say in Mhorhied) then I would see no reason he couldn't start to worship the human pantheon and potentially acquire the druid-like features of priests of Erik or be a priest of any of the other gods.
    Duane Eggert

  10. #10
    Administrator Green Knight's Avatar
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    I think you are missing the point or rather limiting yourself to 2E

    canon.



    Don E suggests that there are three different sources of magic - that

    druidic magic is in fact not divine in origin, but rather originates

    somewhere else.



    In the following, one would have to presume that druids of Aeric do not

    necessarily draw their power solely from their god, but rather from

    nature (perhaps the druids actually revere Aeric, but draw their power

    from nature). This certainly does imply that there might exist clerics

    of Aeric as well.



    In all of the above is there a radical departure from the 2E druid in

    BR. For instance, since druidic magic is primordial, not divine, it does

    not violate the "elves do not have gods or divine magic aspect".

    Likewise, goblins may be druids, not because druids are nature-loving

    priests of a human god, but because druids represent an older (more

    primordial) way of religious belief. It might even mean that in the

    distant past, there were no clerics, but that the various priesthoods

    were manned solely by druids...



    I find the concept intriguing.



    Cheers

    Bjørn



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    Sent: 15. desember 2003 19:27

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    Subject: Re: Elven Rangers [2#2141]



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    irdeggman wrote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Don E,Dec 15 2003, 12:11 PM
    This might bring up the question on

    wheter to allow elves to be druids or not. Personally I think all races

    should be allowed to have druids as a remenant of their ancient beliefs

    that was much more common before the spread of civilization. I think

    goblin druids are a good source of intrigue a plot lines if one are

    looking for a non-human centred setting.



    Cheers,

    Don E
    You could do that, but the 2nd ed Birthright made it very specific that

    there were no druids (per the class in the PHB) and that all druid-like

    priests were priest of Erik. This is something that is very significant

    and helps to explain why elves only had minor divine magic (that from

    being a ranger) instead of that of a druid (which is pretty

    substantial). If elves had access to all of that druidic magic then

    they would surely have defeated the humans a long time ago. I mean the

    elves already had access to greater magic (arcane) and humans didn`t

    until after Deismaar. So if elves had both greater arcane magic and

    drudic magic then they would surely have run the humans off the

    continent.



    And why would goblins ever be druids? It doesn`t make sense to me.

    Even the `civilized` Cerilian goblins have no greater affinity for

    nature than their non-Cerilian counterparts. Again we would be back to

    the all druids are priests of Erik which would pretty much eliminate the

    average goblin from ever becoming a druid. Although if a goblin left

    his `homeland` and become more human-like (for example say in Mhorhied)

    then I would see no reason he couldn`t start to worship the human

    pantheon and potentially acquire the druid-like features of priests of

    Erik or be a priest of any of the other gods.



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    Cheers
    Bjørn
    DM of Ruins of Empire II PbeM

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