Results 1 to 8 of 8
  1. #1
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    2
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Hello folk!
    This is my first time in this forum. I am a long-time fan of Birthright, definitely the best campaign ever created by TSR. I downloaded the 3e rules for BR, and I think that they are very well written, but a point which I found lacking is (not the author's fault, really, but Wizard's) the casting of divine spells; all clerics are practically the same!. I am playing 3e Birthright since one year, and my campaign has gone really well, with my adaptation of the boxed set and expansion material. To circumvent the problem with divine spellcasters, I revamped, retooled and reorganized the spell lists of 3e spells, to create an analogous to 2nd edition spheres. The work has been long and hard, but finally I got a document which I could use for all 2nd edition campaigns! I found that, with every AD&D campaing, the worst problem for converting are priest spells.
    In the case of the BR campaign, I created the spheres of AD&D PHB, and updated according the material in P.O.:Spells & Magic, namely All, Astral, Charm, Elemental (air, earth, fire, water), Guardian, Healing, Necromantic, Plant, Protection, Sun, Weather
    Then, based on the info in the boxed set, I assigned the spheres, with Minor access defined as spells of levels 0-3. The Paladins got to choose 4 spheres (with minor access only) from those given by the god they serve. Rangers have minor access only to Animal and Plant spheres.
    If you want to peruse the document, I can post it in the download section. Feedback is welcome!

  2. #2
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    near Frankfurt/ Germany
    Posts
    801
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    The BR D20 and the Atlas team know this problem already. We work on integrating deity related PrC's for Birthright to remove this problem a little. Some of the PrC's already exist, but the teams aren't of one opinion about them. The final version of those (and other PrC's) you will find in the Atlas of Cerilia...

    Restricting "spheres" are highly against 3rd Edition as such, that's why we canceled it (see other threads in the play testing part). This would create several cleric base classes, allowed, but too confusing. If you created spheres, did you think of the other powers priests had in 2nd Edition? If you restrict one part, you should enhance the other...
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  3. #3
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Springfield Mo
    Posts
    3,562
    Downloads
    2
    Uploads
    0
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Ariadne" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
    Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 12:28 PM

    > Restricting "spheres" are highly against 3rd Edition as such, that`s
    > why we canceled it (see other threads in the play testing part). This
    > would create several cleric base classes, allowed, but too confusing.
    > If you created spheres, did you think of the other powers priests had
    > in 2nd Edition? If you restrict one part, you should enhance the other...

    Creating a seperate class for each divine spellcaster is exactly what I did.
    Some of them are up at my Taelshore site.
    http://home.mchsi.com/~kgauck/taelshore/divine.htm

    This area is still under construction, so not all links go where I want, and
    some are missing. Druids of Lirorn, for instance are linked from Druids of
    Erik, not from the main page yet. But, you can see the old familiar
    priesthoods of some of them. I have crafted unique spell lists for each
    class based on the old spheres and an excel file.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Beruin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    228
    Downloads
    4
    Uploads
    0
    rabindranath wrote:
    [snip]
    >>To circumvent the problem with divine spellcasters, I revamped, retooled and reorganized the spell lists of 3e spells, to create an analogous to 2nd edition spheres.
    [snip]
    If you want to peruse the document, I can post it in the download section.<<

    I would greatly appreciate it if you could post this list as I planned to compile a similar list myself. This would certainly spare me a lot of work.

    Ariadne wrote:
    >>Restricting "spheres" are highly against 3rd Edition as such, that`s why we canceled it (see other threads in the play testing part).<<

    Well, that`s fine with me for the BRCS but it`s not the way I would like to portray priests IMC. I agree with Michael Romes in this regard (quote):

    >>3E Priests rob the priests of different gods of their identity, of their
    flavour, their specialty.
    In addition it unbalances the divine -arcane spellcaster balance in
    Birthright.<<

    Don`t get me wrong, in general, I love the 3E rules (so please no arguments to the tune of `Play 2e if you don`t like it), but I strongly dislike 3E clerics, for several reasons:
    - Clerics are very similar to one another, regardless of their faith.
    - IMO, they`re probably the strongest and most versatile (i.e. unbalanced) PC class, giving their mix of weapons, armor, high hit points, spells etc.
    - The use of spheres in 2e made some spells, notably raise dead and resurrection, more rare, without banning them outright. IMC, these spells will only be obtained with difficulty, if at all.
    - To top it off, the domain spells in 3E added a number of spells to the repertoire of clerics which had been the sole province of wizards before, thereby once again strengthening divine casters compared to wizards.These spells include (among others) invisibility, ice storm, cone of cold, fly, stoneskin, teleport, and several Bigby`s hand spells. I guess it might make sense for clerics of specific deities to have access to some of these spells, but in general I believe that it`s a very bad idea to add wizard spells to the cleric`s repertoire without limiting his power in other areas.

    Christoph Tiemann


    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
    "The empire, long divided, must unite; long united, must divide. Thus it has ever been."
    - The Three Kingdoms, attributed to Luo Guanzhong, c.1330-c.1400

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    BR mailing list
    Posts
    1,562
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    From: "Christoph Tiemann" <tiemach@UNI-MUENSTER.DE>

    > IMO, they`re [clerics] probably the strongest and most versatile (i.e.
    unbalanced)
    > PC class, giving their mix of weapons, armor, high hit points, spells etc.
    >

    I thought so, too, in the beginning. They look very powerful on paper. I
    even played some clerics to see if I was right. But in my experience clerics
    are still not all that powerful - at least at lower levels. Nobody around
    here plays a cleric any more, so now that our campaigns have reached a high
    level, there are no PC clerics. Thus I can`t say if clerics are too powerful
    at high levels.

    Can anyone else answer this? Are PC clerics too powerful at high levels? I`d
    prefer if the comparison was mostly to other spellcasters (wiz/sor mainly),
    since the entire caster/noncaster balance issue at high levels is so very
    much influuenced by how much magic items the campaign has. But any comment
    is fine.

    /Carl




    __________________________________________________ ___
    Gratis e-mail resten av livet på www.yahoo.se/mail
    Busenkelt!

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
    NOTE: Messages posted by Birthright-L are automatically inserted posts originating from the mailing list linked to the forum.

  6. #6
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    near Frankfurt/ Germany
    Posts
    801
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Originally posted by Beruin

    - To top it off, the domain spells in 3E added a number of spells to the repertoire of clerics which had been the sole province of wizards before, thereby once again strengthening divine casters compared to wizards.These spells include (among others) invisibility, ice storm, cone of cold, fly, stoneskin, teleport, and several Bigby`s hand spells. I guess it might make sense for clerics of specific deities to have access to some of these spells, but in general I believe that it`s a very bad idea to add wizard spells to the cleric`s repertoire without limiting his power in other areas.
    May I say, that "ice storm" and "cone of cold" already where spells granted by Kriesha to her priestesses in 2nd Edition (as powers). Don't get me wrong: I did like the 2nd Edition clerics very much too and to make them totally equal is just boring (agreed). That's why it was my idea to create prestige classes to make them a little bit individually without creating own spell lists for every religion...
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Germany near Frankfurt
    Posts
    295
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Clerics in the 3. Edition are strong and wield great power, but they are also well designed.

    They are better playable than clerics in the 2. Edition. I made the experience that new players did not wan't to play clerics, because for the "sphere"-stuff one needs a very good overview of the spells.

    To make clerics more specialised the invention of cleric-prestige-classes is needed.

    Here is the point,Mark_Aurel ;)
    my purpose is now to lead you into the Pallace where you shall have a clear and delightful view of all those various objects, and scattered excellencies, that lye up and down upon the face of creation, which are only seen by those that go down into the Seas, and by no other....

  8. #8
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    1
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Yes! Please post the priestly spheres you've developed! The second edition BR clerics had much more flavor and I no longer have enough time to develop the spheres on my own.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
BIRTHRIGHT, DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, D&D, the BIRTHRIGHT logo, and the D&D logo are trademarks owned by Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and are used by permission. ©2002-2010 Wizards of the Coast, Inc.