Detect Evil at will?

[geeman]

3 +1200, John Machin wrote:



>I think that Undetectable Alignment is just the boring vanilla D&D

>equivalent of the "Hide from Enemies" magic.



When PCs, however, have access to equally boring "Detect Enemies" magic

what better solution is there?



>I personally don`t like to have a lot of "invisible" evil villains. The

>coolest antagonists I think are "visible"; people with ideas that the

>players would, in other circumstances, agree with. ;)



I would agree with that, though can be a difficult thing to pull off

sometimes. I like having a nice range of enemies in a campaign; some that

are clearly meant as cannon fodder, others that are insidious and difficult

to define. Generally, the latter motivates and pulls the strings of the

former, but that`s the kind of thing the players have to find out for

themselves.



Gary

[Trithemius]

l true, but is this power a class feature, a special Eloele

> feat, or an especially good spell?



At the most basic level, it is Undetectable Alignment. If people have

created specific classes (or prestige classes) based around the worship

of certain gods of the Cerilian pantheon then perhaps they could be

included as class features. Undetectable Alignment, as it is, is

available to pretty much every cleric of the requisite level. I`m not

saying that this is a good thing, but it is the current situation.



> I do, for example, have the White Witch out there, but I

> don`t do very much with her, because 1) I don`t want to play

> a Viking X-files, and 2) super secret enties are limited by

> their own super secretness.



Oh agreed :)



--

John Machin

(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

-----------------------------------

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

[kgauck]

ge -----

From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>

Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 5:15 PM





> When PCs, however, have access to equally boring "Detect Enemies" magic

> what better solution is there?



Ultimatly, I think the solution involves a skill check or some other kind of

check. Getting basic information should be easy, getting secret information

should be difficult. Spells can provide clues, but too much information

short circuts mystery. This should be a sword and shield issue, there is

information seeking and defense against same.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[ryancaveney]

Gary wrote:



> At 01:12 AM 7/29/2003 +1200, John Machin wrote:

>

> >I think that Undetectable Alignment is just the boring vanilla D&D

> >equivalent of the "Hide from Enemies" magic.

>

> When PCs, however, have access to equally boring "Detect Enemies" magic

> what better solution is there?



The obvious solution is to prohibit all boring detect enemies magic!

That`s the one I use. IMC, no native-born Cerilian who has not been

obviously bloodformed into an awnshegh would register *at all* on Detect

Evil. This makes the power nearly useless (well, I suppose if it was

dark, and the Gorgon was nearby, you could figure out where he was and run

away), but I think that is necessary to have anything like the political

intrigue which IMO should be at the heart of a Birthright campaign.



> others that are insidious and difficult to define. Generally, the

> latter motivates and pulls the strings of the former, but that`s the

> kind of thing the players have to find out for themselves.



One of the things I very much like about Birthright`s focus on the world

of politics is that it greatly increases moral ambiguity: the game of

thrones is not for the faint of heart or lily-livered goody-two-shoes.

As the Pirate King of Penzance put it,



When I sally forth to seek my prey

I help myself in a royal way

I sink a few more ships, it`s true

Than a well-bred monarch ought to do.

But many a king on a first-class throne

If he wants to call his crown his own

Must manage somehow to get through

More dirty work than *ever* I do!



In my personal opinion, there is no ruler anywhere in Cerilia who

qualifies as particularly "good" in a simple-minded alignment sense,

especially the ones who are actually good (in the sense of competent at

their job) rulers! In my Cerilia, the principle that a good prince is a

person who sacrifices his own personal innocence to protect his people by

any means necessary is widely regarded as obviously true.





Ryan Caveney

[kgauck]

ge -----

From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>

Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 5:55 PM





> The obvious solution is to prohibit all boring detect enemies magic!

> That`s the one I use. IMC, no native-born Cerilian who has not been

> obviously bloodformed into an awnshegh would register *at all* on Detect

> Evil.



I have no problem with powerful law aligned characters being able to detect

that an informant is unreliable, or a powerful good character being able to

detect that a specific applicant to the party will not be committed to the

spirit of the crusade. Power over the chuckle head in a bar selling death

sticks, yes. Power over the chancellor, no.



> One of the things I very much like about Birthright`s focus on the world

> of politics is that it greatly increases moral ambiguity: the game of

> thrones is not for the faint of heart or lily-livered goody-two-shoes.



I rather regard good alignment as the Machiavellian lion, and lawful

alignment as the fox.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Trithemius]

PCs, however, have access to equally boring "Detect

> Enemies" magic what better solution is there?



Which deity in BR should have this magic? I don`t know of any vigiliance

deities in BR. In HW followers of the chaos-smiting deity can try to

sense chaos-evil; followers of the pole-star/watchmen deity can try to

detect hidden enemies that approach from afar. I don`t think that these

magics should be generic, but rather specific.



It is also useful in situations like these if magic isn`t an

"autosucceeding" thing. HeroWars has magic treated as a stat like

everything else, unlike D&D.



D&D is not good :



--

John Machin

(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

-----------------------------------

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

[Trithemius]

bvious solution is to prohibit all boring detect enemies

> magic! That`s the one I use. IMC, no native-born Cerilian

> who has not been obviously bloodformed into an awnshegh would

> register *at all* on Detect Evil. This makes the power

> nearly useless (well, I suppose if it was dark, and the

> Gorgon was nearby, you could figure out where he was and run

> away), but I think that is necessary to have anything like

> the political intrigue which IMO should be at the heart of a

> Birthright campaign.



Or get rid of alignments! >:D



> In my personal opinion, there is no ruler anywhere in Cerilia

> who qualifies as particularly "good" in a simple-minded

> alignment sense, especially the ones who are actually good

> (in the sense of competent at their job) rulers! In my

> Cerilia, the principle that a good prince is a person who

> sacrifices his own personal innocence to protect his people

> by any means necessary is widely regarded as obviously true.



Just like the Scorpions from L5R?



--

John Machin

(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

-----------------------------------

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

[Trithemius]

timatly, I think the solution involves a skill check or

> some other kind of check. Getting basic information should

> be easy, getting secret information should be difficult.

> Spells can provide clues, but too much information short

> circuts mystery. This should be a sword and shield issue,

> there is information seeking and defense against same.



Sadly magic in D&D is a terribly terribly boring affair.



--

John Machin

(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

-----------------------------------

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

[kgauck]

ge -----

From: "John Machin" <trithemius@PARADISE.NET.NZ>

Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 1:37 AM





> Sadly magic in D&D is a terribly terribly boring affair.



Agreed. Much in need of change. I have really like the ArM system, and

with some adjustments (don`t want Hermeticism in Cerilia) will probably use

it as the magic system of my next campaign.



D&D seems to be best suited to fighters and rogues. I am satisfied with

combat (taking my homebrew into account). Its magic that vexes.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[geeman]

3 +1200, John Machin wrote:



>Which deity in BR should have this magic? I don`t know of any vigiliance

>deities in BR. In HW followers of the chaos-smiting deity can try to

>sense chaos-evil; followers of the pole-star/watchmen deity can try to

>detect hidden enemies that approach from afar. I don`t think that these

>magics should be generic, but rather specific.



Paladins` ability to detect evil at will was pretty much the most

ubiquitous example, though the detect spells are pretty easily available,

and that`s the kind of thing that characters _would_ make a magic item out

of given its obvious utility.... Anyway, the solution most folks seem to

prefer here is to limit access to that ability or to make it less effective

as in a skill check, either of which are apt IMO. I`m starting to think a

combination of those with a third option makes the most overall

sense. That is, making the nature of "good-evil" and "law-chaos" more of a

system of allegiance rather than the simplistic alignment system. Point

values in various allegiances would fit into both limited use and

difficulty of detection by giving the system some sort of target numbers.



Gary