New monster type for awnshegliens?

[Mark_Aurel]

What's about so called native outsiders? The most famous (and greatly discussed) example is a 20th level monk. Naturally several PrC's grant "native outsider" as a 10th level ability (example: Alienist of "tome and blood").

Same is for elemental (see "elemental servant" of the "tome and blood" for example).

There's a new monster subtype in 3.5 as well - "extraplanar" - to solve the headaches caused by the outsider/native outsider issues.

Of course, you could then argue that the outsider type should be usable for awnsheghlien - but I still think not; outsiders are still defined by their origin, not their physical makeup; i.e. a devil is not extraplanar in Hell. Outsiders native to the Shadow World? No, I rather think there'd be undead and some [evil] fey there, if anything at all - it's a pretty bleak and empty place for the most part.

Azrai's breath I ruled as some sort of air elemental IIRC. Else I agree that Dragons should be shunned, outsiders avoided (imported) and elementals avoided (wierd change).

Hmmm, that's a good point - I'd forgotten about that one. It really would be most appropriate with an elemental type there. The thing that separates that creature from others debated here, though, is its origin - it's supposedly a creature created from whole cloth, not evolved from another. Still a good point, though.

[Mourn]

Originally posted by irdeggman
Outsider - An outsider is a nonelemental creature that comes from another dimension, reality, or plane, has an ancestor from such a place or undergoes a change that makes it similar to such creatures.

I like this description much better than the MM I posted, as well. I hope 3.5 using this change too.

While an outsider type could be a creature that undergoes a change (sounds very much like an awnshegh's transformation) they are not native to Aebrynis and hence should generally be discouraged.

Ummm... no?

Remember the key word in the phrase about undergoing a change... SIMILAR. They are SIMILAR to such creatures, but may not actually be one. An awnshegh may become so corrupt, twisted, and vile, that he does not resemble any creature from this plane of existence, which would make him an outsider. The very description you quote lends credence to this being appropriate.

A creature is only a non-native of Aebrynis if it has the (Extraplanar) subtype, if we're already making allowances for 3.5.

You would never have an awnshegh that is transforming into a monk. They don't transform into a class they transform into a type of monster.:)

Hmmm.

[Mourn]

Originally posted by Mark_Aurel
Outsiders native to the Shadow World? No, I rather think there'd be undead and some [evil] fey there, if anything at all - it's a pretty bleak and empty place for the most part.

Wait a second. You say that outsiders (defined as creatures whose origin lies in another plane of existence) should not be native to the Shadow World (another plane of existence, apart from Aebrynis). I find that a little... odd.

I imagine demons of shadow, creatures manifested from negative human emotion, given power and form by the Shadow World's corruption. After all, it is a world of fell enchanments and strange beings.

[Nikolai II]

Originally posted by Mourn
Wait a second. You say that outsiders (defined as creatures whose origin lies in another plane of existence) should not be native to the Shadow World (another plane of existence, apart from Aebrynis). I find that a little... odd.

I imagine demons of shadow, creatures manifested from negative human emotion, given power and form by the Shadow World's corruption. After all, it is a world of fell enchanments and strange beings.

I wouldn't. I see the shadow world as Aebrynis mirror image, now twisted and distorted into a shadowy undead replica of it self.

It's either that or halflings are outsiders..;)

[Mark_Aurel]

Wait a second. You say that outsiders (defined as creatures whose origin lies in another plane of existence) should not be native to the Shadow World (another plane of existence, apart from Aebrynis). I find that a little... odd.

I imagine demons of shadow, creatures manifested from negative human emotion, given power and form by the Shadow World's corruption. After all, it is a world of fell enchanments and strange beings.

What comes from the Shadow World or dwells therein? Halflings came from the Shadow World before it was darkened; other, similar creatures (basically, fey) still dwell there, but twisted. Since the Cold Rider arrived, the undead have been piling on. Some of these undead probably have dual existences (ghosts, wraiths and the like); others would be considered extraplanar if they were to enter Cerilia.

Like I tried to explain, the new official line will separate "outsider" from "extraplanar" - the concept of outsider might better be defined now as "powerful creature from the outer planes" than "nonelemental extraplanar."

Remember the key word in the phrase about undergoing a change... SIMILAR. They are SIMILAR to such creatures, but may not actually be one. An awnshegh may become so corrupt, twisted, and vile, that he does not resemble any creature from this plane of existence, which would make him an outsider. The very description you quote lends credence to this being appropriate.

Ummm ... no. If he became so corrupt, twisted and vile that he does not -resemble- any creature from this world, he'd be pegged as an aberration. Outsiders tend to resemble creatures from this world anyway; celestials are humans with feathered wings, and devils are humans with bat wings, horns, and a bad attitude. If he's really as physically twisted as you say, aberration would be a better type; he wouldn't suddenly come from Far Beyond or the Abyss in any case. Aberrations are basically what you described - real ugly mother fudgers.

Outsider is a state of being more than it is an anatomical description, which is what we want here.

[Birthright-L]

From: "Nikolai II" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

> It`s either that or halflings are outsiders..;)
>

Not every creature from another plane is an outsider. Summoned creatures are
extraplanar, but most of them are still just animals (Check out the
infernaland fiendish templates - they do not change the type into outsider).
Similarily, halflings might originally have been extraplanar as a species,
but their type was always Humanoid, and present-day halflings are no longer
of extraplanar origin.

A case can be made for Sidhelien being fey rather than humanoid, however.
After all, they are a lot more alien than regular elves.

/Carl

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[Mourn]

Originally posted by Mark_Aurel
What comes from the Shadow World or dwells therein? Halflings came from the Shadow World before it was darkened; other, similar creatures (basically, fey) still dwell there, but twisted. Since the Cold Rider arrived, the undead have been piling on. Some of these undead probably have dual existences (ghosts, wraiths and the like); others would be considered extraplanar if they were to enter Cerilia.

This I agree with.

Like I tried to explain, the new official line will separate "outsider" from "extraplanar" - the concept of outsider might better be defined now as "powerful creature from the outer planes" than "nonelemental extraplanar."

Yes, I know. In fact, in my post, I brought up the new description that was quoted, and I will do it again.

Outsider - An outsider is a nonelemental creature that comes from another dimension, reality, or plane, has an ancestor from such a place or undergoes a change that makes it similar to such creatures.

That's the key phrase there. If it undergoes a change to make it similar to an outsider, then it should be treated as an outsider, pure and simple.

Also, gods are defined as outsiders by the rules. If a person has the blood of a god within their veins, then by the definition listed above, they could qualify for the type.

Ummm ... no. If he became so corrupt, twisted and vile that he does not -resemble- any creature from this world, he'd be pegged as an aberration.

According to description of Aberration (defined as a creature with bizarre anatomy, strange abilities, an alien mindset, or any combination of the three), nearly every monster in any source should be an abberation. The Gorgon has bizarre anatomy, strange abilities, and an alien mindset. As does the Spider. The Ogre. Hell, even normal outsider creatures such as demons and devils fall under this umbrella by the description.

Outsiders tend to resemble creatures from this world anyway; celestials are humans with feathered wings, and devils are humans with bat wings, horns, and a bad attitude.

And pretty much EVERY creature has some kind of feature that a creature from this world possesses. However, most otusiders do are not merely humanoids with wings and some horns and claws.

A few do... barghest (in goblin form), most celestials do (hound archons have animal features, which touches on monstrous humanoid), a few demons (most are substantially different enough from "humanoids with wings"), a few devils (same as demons), genies do, night hag (if this creature doesn't belong in the Shadow World, I don't know what does), planetouched... etc... etc...

At least half (and probably more) of the outsiders listed in the core books are not humanoid in nature, and do not fit into your "humanoid with wings" categorization of outsiders.

If he's really as physically twisted as you say, aberration would be a better type; he wouldn't suddenly come from Far Beyond or the Abyss in any case. Aberrations are basically what you described - real ugly mother fudgers.

Read what I wrote again. Tell me where I typed in the words "physically twisted." Wait, let me answer that... I didn't. I said corrupted, twisted, and vile.... and not all aberrations have to be corrupted... or twisted... or vile... they merely have to have a bizarre anatomy (physical), special abilities (supernatural), or an alien mindset (mental).

Outsider is a state of being more than it is an anatomical description, which is what we want here.

And undead is a state of being, rather than an anatomoical description, as well, but there seem to be no problems with that.

And again I stress.... if they are SIMILAR to an outsider, they are treated as an outsider.

[Mourn]

Originally posted by Nikolai II
I wouldn't. I see the shadow world as Aebrynis mirror image, now twisted and distorted into a shadowy undead replica of it self.

You see it that way, but the BRCS sees it as a seperate world.

"A rift was formed between the elements of permanence and transience, creating two worlds where once there was one." BRCS Playtest Document, page 51

And here's another.

"The other world is called the Shadow World, a realm of fairy enchantment separate from, but parallel to, Aebrynis."

And since dimension door, dimension walk and other similar spells employ the Shadow World (whereas in the core rules, they use the astral plane), it is still considered a separate plane.

It's either that or halflings are outsiders..;)

They could be outsiders. Or they could be humanoid (extraplanar)... actually, no they couldn't be extraplanar, if they were born on Aebrynis, since it would be their native plane.

They fit the outsider description, with their origin lying in another world. However, they also fit the humanoid description (two arms, two legs, one head, humanlike torso, arms and head. Few supernatural or extraordinary abilities, and Small or Medium-size).