My 2 cents

**Birthright-L** · 03-09-2003, 05:38 PM

Well, if you want to get nit-picky....I still prefer the original Advanced
Dungeons & Dragons over either of the more recent conversions. Then I would
rank 2nd Ed, then 3rd. The thing I don`t like about 3e is the limitation on
character ability.

Yep, I said it: "limitation on character ability"

It used to mean something being multi-class or dual classed. I miss the
days of having my human 7th level fighter, 8th level thief, 12th level bard
(first Ed). For me to have that now, I would have to be big time epic; and
that just stinks.

Of course, as someone previously said, that is just MY 2 cents.

Tony

----Original Message Follows----
From: Atarikid <atarikid@CHARTER.NET>

> 1. The fact that something sells good does not mean it >has a high
quality. The 3. Edition is a mass market >product, it can not be compared to
old TSR material.

I never claimed it could. I prefer 2e anyday to 3e.
-------------------
> 2. The TSR stuff was`nt bad, only too much was >published. Wizards
learned from that and only took over >the FR and Greyhawk setting. Thats bad
for fans and >bad for quality, because the taste of the masses is >always
low quality.

Where in the hell are you getting that I hate TSR? I prefered TSR to
Hasbro/Wizards any day.

> 3. Manual of the Planes is a very good book, also >DnDemigods.

Now here we can agree to disagree. I prefer the old 2e versions of the
books, but the 3e versions are a waste of $60.

-Anakin Miller

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**DanMcSorley** · 03-09-2003, 09:14 PM

On Sun, 9 Mar 2003, Raesene Andu wrote:
> By the way, the realm descriptions in the atlas will be mini-PS type
> descriptions, each one with an expanded description and a bit more
> info on the history of the realm than the original books.

Where is this information coming from?
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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**Peter Lubke** · 03-10-2003, 02:19 AM

On Sat, 2003-03-08 at 18:32, Atarikid wrote:

Poorly written material does not sell.

Unfortunately that is not true. It has never been true, and I suspect,
will never be true.

Gamers always say they would pay money for a cheap, crappy copy of some
long abandoned campaign setting, but in truth, they wouldn`t.

Gamers (lots of them) wont. Some will. Rarity, and originality - even
controversy in the case of one long forgotten published D&D work
(something like "Palace of the Silver Princess") can make an object
quite valuable and in demand - without being well-written at all.

When a
publisher begins to steadily put out lousy material, just as TSR did
toward the end of its life, it loses its popularity. The 3rd Edition
core books have been out for about 3 years now, and have already outsold
the 2nd Edition core books. Quality has a direct bearing on popularity.

Quality is in the eye of the beholder.

Almost true. Now you get to know one reason why poorly written material
can sell very well indeed. Publishers and writers have a vested interest
in the beholder buying their product. They have a very great incentive
therefore in getting the beholder to view the product as better than it
actually is.

Apparent Quality has a direct bearing on popularity.

The only thing that is selling extremely well is the FR setting. That is
unavoidable, unfortunately. Has anyone seen anymore Greyhawk material?
Strange that since D&D 3e`s default world is Greyhawk. Speaking of
Quality in Core books, I have been disappoited severely with the 3e Core
books. The Manual of the Planes was terrible. The Deities and Demigods
smacked me as a munchin fest. I hate the fact that they put stats on
gods. No PC should be able to take on a god and actually have such a
good chance at victory that stats are needed. The epic level handbook?
I sold it 2 hours after I bought it. That the most Uber Munchin Fest
book I think I have ever read. It was like reading my HackMaster books
(well not exactly, I know HackMaster is ment to be a monty haul filled
joke. The book of Vile Darkness while different, was useless in my
games. I don`t tend to run high demonic/corruption plotlines.

Now I offer these items as the qualities I love about Birthright:

The fact that it did not....

have drow.....
have gnomes.....
have half dragons....
have 100001 different gods whose portfolios ranged from
"The god of apples picked on tuesdays" to the Evil Lord of the Western
Most Peak of the Southern Mountain Range of Doom.....
have an oriental/eastern/kung-fu/ninja setting......
have 23rd level bards/wizards/thieves on every corner......
have more than 2 dozen true wizards in anuire.......
have more than a dozen dragons in the world.....
have orcs, orges, 32 different species of dragons.....
allow demihuman subraces.....
gunpowder..... (Ok maybe it did but its still damn primitive and not
widely used (ie waves of cerilia from Dragon Magazine))

I prefer a setting with more restrictions and less options.

But, yes -- me too.

In fact from a point of view of real quality as opposed to apparent
quality - BR is the most difficult of the standard campaign settings to
write for - and therefore the hardest to counterfeit (or produce
apparent quality products)

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**Peter Lubke** · 03-10-2003, 02:19 AM

On Mon, 2003-03-10 at 04:19, Anthony Edwards wrote:

Well, if you want to get nit-picky....I still prefer the original Advanced
Dungeons & Dragons over either of the more recent conversions. Then I would
rank 2nd Ed, then 3rd.

Me too.

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**AnakinMiller** · 03-10-2003, 06:03 AM

For the record these where not my statement or opinions. I was replying to
another email. The formatting made it look like these where statements I
was saying:

>Poorly written material does not sell.

>When a publisher begins to steadily put out lousy material, j>ust as TSR
did toward the end of its life, it loses its >popularity. The 3rd Edition
core books have been out for >about 3 years now, and have already outsold
>the 2nd Edition core books. Quality has a direct bearing >on popularity.

I personally believe poorly written material does sell (aka Forgotten
Realms.)

----------------

Now onto the matter at hand. Ian would it be possible to get a hold of the
unpublished Dragon Magazine article by Rich Baker concerning the Imperial
Colonies on Anduria? I`m trying to place Diemese interest in the colonial
history for the PS I`m writing and would love a chance to see what was
designed.

I`m got a few more questions but I`ll email you off list if I can get your
email addy.

-Anakin Miller
-------------------------
"What was sundered, shall be remade.
What was stolen, shall be avenged. "
- Engraved on the Crown of Diemed

Ian would it be possible to look over the Unpublished

> On Sat, 2003-03-08 at 18:32, Atarikid wrote:
>
> Poorly written material does not sell.
>
> Gamers always say they would pay money for a cheap, crappy copy of
some long abandoned campaign setting, but in truth, they wouldn`t.
>
> When a publisher begins to steadily put out lousy material, just as
TSR did toward the end of its life, it loses its popularity. The 3rd
Edition core books have been out for about 3 years now, and have already
outsold
the 2nd Edition core books. Quality has a direct bearing on popularity.
>

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**Raesene Andu** · 03-10-2003, 08:35 AM

Originally posted by AnakinMiller
Now onto the matter at hand. Ian would it be possible to get a hold of the
unpublished Dragon Magazine article by Rich Baker concerning the Imperial
Colonies on Anduria? I`m trying to place Diemese interest in the colonial
history for the PS I`m writing and would love a chance to see what was
designed.

I`m got a few more questions but I`ll email you off list if I can get your
email addy.

My e-mail is hoss@chariot.net.au

Just send me a message there and I'll see if I can't help you out with some of the information. Most of it (including the map of Aduria) will find its way into the Atlas eventually.

**Raesene Andu** · 03-10-2003, 08:37 AM

Originally posted by DanMcSorley
On Sun, 9 Mar 2003, Raesene Andu wrote:
> By the way, the realm descriptions in the atlas will be mini-PS type
> descriptions, each one with an expanded description and a bit more
> info on the history of the realm than the original books.

Where is this information coming from?

Um.. from me actually...

I'm heading up the Atlas of Cerilia project at the moment, so busy working on the design of the book and trying to decide what will be included.

**DanMcSorley** · 03-10-2003, 04:59 PM

On Mon, 10 Mar 2003, Raesene Andu wrote:
> > Where is this information coming from?
>
> Um.. from me actually...
>
> I`m heading up the Atlas of Cerilia project at the moment, so busy
> working on the design of the book and trying to decide what will be
> included.

Really. This was supposed to be a conversion of old material.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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**Ariadne** · 03-11-2003, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by DanMcSorley

Really. This was supposed to be a conversion of old material.

Yes, that's why all "player's secrets" books are summed up. This is enough "new" material compared with the "Ruins of Empire"...

**irdeggman** · 03-11-2003, 08:28 PM

And the d20 Atlas team is "filling in the gaps" in the 2nd ed system. There wasn't a PS for every domain so there needs to be something to make them all sort of balance out, instead a very large section on Roesone and next to nothing on Ghoere. From what I've seen they are incorporating many of the issues discussed and domain descriptions that people have posted into something pretty slick and overall very well done.:)