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  1. #1
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Another part of the Atlas work was the creation of BR-fitting prestige classes. Meanwhile several PrC’s have been created, addressing completely different topics or specialisations. The first part of prestige classes open for discussion are my deity related PrC’s. All prestige classes are modified more than once meanwile and it is still not for sure, including really all of them and exactly as they are now into the atlas.

    PrC’s related to other topics will be posted for discussion later.
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

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    I would suggest in the case of the Doom guard that a character may not necessarily need to be a servant of the cold rider or Kriesha but to have had some contact with the shadow world.

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    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    I'll have to do some checking, but I think that the prequisites for some of these PrC might be too low. Per the DMG a character is not supposed to be able to qualify for a PrC until 5th level making the earliest a character can take a level of a PrC 6th.

    By giving some races class skills of certain skills these should be looked at some more.

    Overall I like them, as I did the first time I saw them.

    I think I'd work at making them less standard though PrC no longer are either 5 or 10 level classes so there is no driving reason to make all of these that way - perhaps some can be better translated as 3 or 7 level classes. Just a thought. Still good work Ariadne
    Duane Eggert

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    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    One of the problems of BR are still it’s only few high level characters. If its good or bad is on another page and should not be a discussion here, but I thought, those PrC’s shouldn’t be created for characters with level 10 or more (as the Archmage for example). Naturally, if we compare the FR deity related prestige classes, they are all made for characters level 9 or more and even humans must be of at least 7th level, but O.K., finding an wizard level 20 on Faerun is as “easy” as finding a tainted blooded scion on BR…

    @The incredible, edible Phil: Yes. The point is to create prestige classes mainly for clerics, druids and paladins (for the doomguard and wizards/ sorcerers), but not completely exclude all other classes. The doomguard only needs to worship Kriesha or the cold rider somehow, he does not necessarily be a cleric. But maybe especially the doomguard can be created a little bit more open

    @Irdeggman: First: Thanx
    Second: Yes, you’re right. Meanwhile there are so much source books on the market, every with at least a few PrC’s presented. I’ve seen PrC’s with 3, 5, 10 and even 13 levels, not included any epic progression of those. “Monster classes” have all levels between, maybe more. WotC has broken its own rules more than once, so why don’t we? Maybe we can rewrite some of those classes as 5 or even 3 level classes…

    Naturally I must say, that I prefer 10 level PrC’s…

    I’m open for suggestions…

    Oh, not all PrC’s are this useful for player characters, I have to say. Especially the Doomguard and the Winter Wolf are more NPC related PrC’s. But well, if someone likes to play one
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  5. #5
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Ariadne@Jan 24 2005, 07:14 PM

    @Irdeggman: First: Thanx
    Second: Yes, you’re right. Meanwhile there are so much source books on the market, every with at least a few PrC’s presented. I’ve seen PrC’s with 3, 5, 10 and even 13 levels, not included any epic progression of those. “Monster classes” have all levels between, maybe more. WotC has broken its own rules more than once, so why don’t we? Maybe we can rewrite some of those classes as 5 or even 3 level classes…
    Yes, in the past they have. But with the advant of 3.5 I haven't seen any WotC product (3.5 updated, don't compare a 3.0 one since the "rules" were different then) that broke the 5th level rule. Heck I thought I spotted some in Dragon (while no longer a WotC product but on further investigation even they ahve kept true to the new rule.

    As far as numbers of levels a PrC should have, basically as I see it the 3.5 philosophy is to use whatever number best captures the "feel" of the class being done. If it requires stretching to make a 10-level class then don't make a 10-level class.

    In general the ones with the higher effective level prequisites have fewer PrC class levels, but that is not always true. The best way to look at it to ask the question "What is this PrC trying to capture or portray?" And then work from there. Pretty much every PrC is single feature or theme and not a replacement for a standard class. All of the ones you put together focus on single theme and that is the ideal design concept. The question to ask would be "is this theme fullfilled at an earlier level of PrC and just added to as the class gains levels?" What I mean was the overall idea to have a 10-level class and thus filing in the levels with additions to previous abilities (IMO this is just fillling in levels since the theme was already met earlier) or are there "essential" abilities to fulfill the theme that need to come in at higher levels of PrC.

    Basically there are no requisite number of levels a PrC can have anymore, except that they can't have more than 14 levels without being epic. This is due to the fact that the first level of PrC can be taken no earlier than 6th character level.

    There is also no limit to the number of PrC that a character can have. Personally I don't like this and would limit any character to only having a single PrC, but the rules as written do not prohibit this. It is my opinion that in order to gain a PrC a character must have a single dedicated focus in order to be prestige, but like I said the rules don't specify this and I don't see any reason to write something otherwise - especially since the use of PrC is always optional and up to the DM as to how he/she wants to incorporate them into a game. So because of that later "rule" it must be recognized that any application of PrC written will invoke some DM "tweaking" or adaption, etc.

    Also there is no restriction on a character switching to another class after taking PrC or taking levels in a previous class. The 2 exceptions are monk and paladin, unless otherwise specified in the PrC description itself. IMO this allowance should be added to the Lawgiver PrC - that is it should state that "paladins of Haelyn may freely mutliclass with this PrC".
    Duane Eggert

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    I have been maintaining a list of PrC`s from Dragon and as many "brown"

    books as I can lay my hands on, and noting which ones I would use or allow in

    my BR games. One could say I`m too lazy to make my own up, but I find it easy

    to take existing works and adjust them to my preferences. As it stands, I`m

    running a low-level game as yet, so it hasn`t been a problem.

    I`ve also been trying to make up organizations that might allow access to

    certain PrC`s, but that has been moving much more slowly.

    Is there any interest here in this list?



    Lee.

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    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    But with the advant of 3.5 I haven't seen any WotC product (3.5 updated, don't compare a 3.0 one since the "rules" were different then) that broke the 5th level rule. Heck I thought I spotted some in Dragon (while no longer a WotC product but on further investigation even they ahve kept true to the new rule.
    There are still enough PrC’s who break the 5 or 10 level “rule”:

    Examples (all 3.5 Edition):
    The Wayfarer Guide (3 level PrC), Complete Arcane, p. 65
    The Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (7 level PrC), Complete Arcane, p. 45
    Void Disciple (13 level PrC), Complete Divine, p. 72

    O.K., the Wayfarer Guide is only a remake of the 3.0 PrC found in “Tome and Blood” with the same name, but the others are completely new 3.5 PrC’s AND WotC created ones. All those PrC’s above are, well, out of standard, but I’m complete your opinion. If a PrC seems to be stretched, I’ll change it, but not necessarily into a 5 level PrC. Best example for a reduced PrC, that WAS stretched, is the Fatespinner: It was a 10 level PrC in 3.0 (TaB) and is now a 5 level PrC (CA). One of the greatest disadvantages of a less than 10 level PrC is the lack of making an epic level progression of it. Well, there ARE optional rules for it, but I agree with the creators, that a PrC only should be made epic, if the character has spend lot of time with it (say 10 levels). This might not be a disadvantage, since I know only few BR epic level characters (mostly Awnshegs ), but IMO it’s worth thinking of..

    You’re right, generally it is possible to become 2 or 5 Prestige classes, I haven’t found any restrictions somewhere. The problem is still fulfilling all requirements for the individual class! If the requirement are feats, it is very hard to fulfil more than two, if you’re not epic.

    Especially the Lawbringer might be rewritten into a 5 level PrC and yes, I’ll add the free paladin progression for this class


    How about those prereqs for the Doomguard:
    Requirements:
    To qualify to become a doomguard, a character must fulfill the following criteria.
    Skills: Knowledge (religion) 10 ranks, intimidate 3 ranks
    Feats: Shadow Magic, spell focus (necromancy)
    Alignment: any evil
    Spells: Must be able to cast animate dead
    Special: Must either be a worshipper of the deities Cold Rider or Kriesha with access to the Death (Cold Rider) or Evil (Kriesha) Domains or must have lived and survived in the shadow world for at least three months

    Something like that would create the PrC a bit more open…
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  8. #8
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Ariadne@Jan 25 2005, 01:27 PM

    There are still enough PrC’s who break the 5 or 10 level “rule”:

    Examples (all 3.5 Edition):
    The Wayfarer Guide (3 level PrC), Complete Arcane, p. 65
    The Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (7 level PrC), Complete Arcane, p. 45
    Void Disciple (13 level PrC), Complete Divine, p. 72

    You misinterpreted what I was saying. I was talking about the rule that in order to qualify for a prestige class a character had to be at least 5th level, taking the first level of prestige class at 6th character level. I wasn't talking about a 5 or 10 level prestige class rule. As you have pointed out that doesn't exist anymore, sort of didn't exist in 3.0 but was a common pattern used.

    The rule regarding prerequisites does in fact exist and is being followed by WotC.
    Duane Eggert

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    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Master of Terror – a character could qualify with 1 level of fighter and 3 levels of cleric (a 4th level character). Prerequisites need to be increased.

    Winter Wolf – a character could qualify with 1 level of ranger and 3 levels of cleric (a 4th level character) Prerequisites need to be increased.

    Moon Hunter – a character could qualify with1 level of ranger and 3 levels of cleric (a 4th level character). Prerequisites need to be increased.

    Guardian of Luck – a character could qualify with 1 level of ranger and 3 levels of cleric 9a 4th level character). Prerequisites need to be increased.

    As far as maybe not requiring a full 10 levels to capture the prestige class theme:

    Does the Storm’s Fist need 10 levels to accomplish this?

    A case could be made to make this a 7 level prestige class. Thundering weapon at 9th is cool ability, but is it really necessary to capture the theme or is it just an add-on to the shocking weapon benefit (2nd level) and used to rationalize a 10 level progression. Same with Storm’s Blessing +10 - the character will already have electrical resistance 10 (5 from the storm domain granted ability and 5 from Storm’s Blessing 5 at 6th level of the prestige class. Just an example of a prestige class that might benefit from some paring down.

    Doomguard – I’d redo the special prerequisite to make it access to either the evil or death domains and specify which one applies to a specific deity. Makes the description simple.

    The revision you just did to the Doomguard will open this up to just about any Halfling character with that surviving in the shadow world bit.
    Duane Eggert

  10. #10
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Lee@Jan 25 2005, 10:00 AM
    I have been maintaining a list of PrC`s from Dragon and as many "brown"

    books as I can lay my hands on, and noting which ones I would use or allow in

    my BR games. One could say I`m too lazy to make my own up, but I find it easy

    to take existing works and adjust them to my preferences. As it stands, I`m

    running a low-level game as yet, so it hasn`t been a problem.

    I`ve also been trying to make up organizations that might allow access to

    certain PrC`s, but that has been moving much more slowly.

    Is there any interest here in this list?



    Lee.












    I think that is a great idea - but should not be included in the Atlas. It fits better as a Royal Library issue. My reasoning be this;

    Players (and DMs) should not be required to buy any more books than the core 3 (PHB/DMG/MM or SRD)

    and this will end up becoming a running list due to the rapidness of new prestige classes being introduced (and that is only counting WotC products and Dragon magazine not even the 3rd party ones). this is reason I'vedropped any mention of the various published prestige classes fromCha 8 (it would be obsolete before the sanctioning vote was completed).
    Duane Eggert

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