3E info for Wemic's wanted

[Raesene Andu]

I'm looking for 3E stats for Wermics. I know they were features in Races of Faerun, but I have no intention of buying an entire book for a single monster description, so I was wondering if anyone could summarise their info.

I'm especially looking for their abilities, and character type info (ability scores, feats, skills, etc). I'm trying to decide if they can become a PC race for Aduria or not. So if anyone can help me out, either e-mail directly at hoss@chariot.net.au or post the information here.

Also information on Gnolls may be useful as well, but I should be able to come up with something based on their stats in the MM.

.... more on Aduria soon.

[Mark_Aurel]

I'll dig it out for you by tomorrow.

[Mark_Aurel]

Wemics

+8 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Cha
5d8 racial hit dice (BAB +5, Fort +1, Ref +4, Will +4)
Starts with (2+Int)x8 skill points (class skills: Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Wilderness Lore) and 2 feats courtesy of hit dice (normal selection is alertness and great fortitude)
Large size (-1 attack and AC, -4 on hide checks, +4 grapple, larger weapons and equipment)
Facing 10 feet (10x5 in old notation), reach 5
Speed 40 feet
Darkvision 60 feet
+4 natural armor
Proficiency with simple weapons and shields
+8 racial bonus on jump checks
Natural weapons (2 claws 1d6) - can attack with a weapon and make a secondary claw attack at -5 with half Str bonus on damage
Level Adjustment: +3
Total ECL: 8

I could convert them to a savage species monster class format if you like - that should make them more playable in most campaigns.

[Raesene Andu]

Thanks, that is very useful, although I'm still not certain if Wermics make a good PC race, I may put them in as an option, given that people like choices. In SS format might be useful, although I haven't seen that book yet (may buy it eventually if it looks like being useful).

One of the major PC races will be the Gnoll though (long background as to why, not important right now). I can gleen a fair amount of their stats from the MM, as follows...

+4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha
Racial HD: 2d8 + con bonus (+1 BAB, +4 Fort)
Speed 30 ft
+1 natual AC
Darkvision 60ft
+3 racial bonus to listen and spot

ECL 2 or 3??

[Mark_Aurel]

Gnolls are ECL 3 - they have 2 Hit Dice, and a +1 level adjustment for their stat bonuses and abilities.

Gnolls don't actually have a racial bonus on listen or spot - that's just how common gnolls spend their racial skill points. The MM method for determining skill points for monsters is fairly cumbersome: Gnolls are medium-size humanoids, and have 2 Hit Dice. Humanoids gain 6 + Int mod (-1 for gnolls) skill points, +1 per "extra hit dice"; medium-size creatures subtract 1 from their total number of hit dice to find extra hit dice (see MM p. 11 on the skill table); gnolls gain 2-1 extra skill points like this - i.e. a total of 6 skill points, distributed equally between listen and spot. I know that all sounds terribly complex, and I get a headache thinking about it sometimes myself - I think they were trying to keep monsters "different" from characters.

The upcoming revised edition will change that somewhat; gnolls will probably start with (2 + Int mod) x 4, plus 2 + Int mod skill points for their second hit dice - i.e. (2 + Int mod) x5 skill points total - the same format as characters. Since gnolls are stupid, it looks like they'll lose a couple of skill points in the revision.

[Mark_Aurel]

Ok, quick gander at gnolls in Savage Species format:

Racial Traits
+2 Str, -2 Int, -2 Cha
Darkvision 60 ft.
Speed 30 ft.

Class Features
Proficient with simple and martial weapons, light and medium armor, and shields.

Class skills: Listen, Spot - Intimidate, Wilderness Lore, and Search also seem appropriate.

Level 1
HD 1d8
BAB +0
Fort +2
Ref +0
Will +0
Skill Points (2 + Int mod) x4
Special: +1 natural armor

Level 2
HD 2d8
BAB +1
Fort +3
Ref +0
Will +0
Skill Points 2 + Int mod
Special: +2 Con

Level 3
HD 2d8
BAB +1
Fort +3
Ref +0
Will +0
Skill Points 2 + Int mod
Special: +2 Str

This kind of progression allows them to take their ECLs as actual levels instead, which means you can start as a 1st-level gnoll, for instance.

It might be a good idea to add a couple of little goodies to the gnoll to make them a bit better - scent and perhaps a +2 racial bonus on intimidate comes to mind as good choices (they're actually less scary than halflings, given their charisma penalty).

[Lord Rahvin]

> This kind of progression allows them to take their ECLs as actual levels instead, which means you can start as a 1st-level gnoll, for instance.
>
> It might be a good idea to add a couple of little goodies to the gnoll to make them a bit better - scent and perhaps a +2 racial bonus on intimidate comes to mind as good choices (they`re actually less scary than halflings, given their charisma penalty).


I think assigning this gnoll an ECL 3 is extremely harsh, even with adding
"a couple of little goodies." Compare this Gnoll with a 3rd level
Dwarven(PHB) fighter:


ECL 3 Gnoll
+2 Str -2 Int -2 Chr
Darkvision
+2 Str
+2 Con
+1 natural armor
HD 2d8
BAB +1
Fort +3
Refl +0
Will +0
Skill Points: (2+Int) * 6
Proficiencies: Simple weapons, martial weapons, light armor, medium armor,
shields.


The dwarf gains the +2 Con and -2 Chr, already an unbalanced ability score
adjustment according to the DMG. This is actually much better that the
gnoll strength adjustment above (at 1st level) which looks balanced at first
glance. The dwarf is slightly slower at only 20 feet; I`d argue that this
makes up for the abiltiy score adjustment.

Both recieve darkvision. Your Gnoll gets +1 natural armor, whereas the
dwarf gets a +4 dodge bonus against giants and a +1 to hit a particular type
of enemy. I think we could say these benefits are on par. (I`m emphasising
the strongest possible case for the Gnoll here; I actually think you`d need
+2 natural armor bonus to equal +4 vs giants and +1 to hit goblins, but just
for argument`s sake, let`s continue.)

As a third level fighter, this dwarven fighter gets +3 BAB, +3 Fort, +1
Refl, +1 Will, two bonus feats, and ([2*int]*6) skill points. I think the
gnoll has a better selection of class skills, but the fighter gets
proficiency in heavy armor.

Gnoll Advantages (over Fighter-3):
+4 Str (+2 to hit and damage and athletic skills)
moves at 10 feet faster than a dwarf

Dwarven Fighter(3) Advantages:
Doesn`t have the -2 Int
d10 hit dice instead of d8
An additional hit die
An additional +2 BAB
An additional +1 to Reflex and Will saves
A multitude of other, less relavent, advantages including exclusive
right to Weapon Specialization, bonuses to saves against poison and spell
effects, and quite a few skill checks.


Dwarven Fighter(2) Advantages:
Doesn`t have the -2 Int
d10 hit dice instead of d8
An additional +1 BAB
A multitude of other, less relavent, advantages including exclusive
right to Weapon Specialization, bonuses to saves against poison and spell
effects, and quite a few skill checks.

Gnoll Advantages (over Fighter-2):
+4 Str
moves at 10 feet faster than dwarf


Dwarven Fighter(1) Advantages:
Doesn`t have the -2 Int
d10 hit dice instead of d8
A multitude of other, less relavent, advantages including exclusive
right to Weapon Specialization, bonuses to saves against poison and spell
effects, and quite a few skill checks.

Gnoll Advantages (over Fighter-1):
+4 Str
moves at 10 feet faster than a dwarf
1 additional hit die
+1 Fort saves


Dwarf Advantages:
Doesn`t have the -2 Int
d10 hit dice instead of d8
A multitude of dwarven advantages including bonuses to saves against
poison and spell effects and quite a few skill checks.

Gnoll Advantages (over Dwarf):
+4 Str
2 additional hit dice
+1 BAB
+3 Fort saves


Okay, clearly the Gnoll and Dwarf aren`t balanced against eachother so the
Gnoll needs some kind of ECL. Take a look at the Fighter(1) comparison.
For the most part all of this balances against eachother, except for the +4
Str which doesn`t have anything to balance with. I`d say the comparison
that comes closest is the Dwarven Fighter(2), though the Dwarven Fighter
still seems like the better choice.

Given that the Dwarven Fighter(3) is so much better than the Gnoll with ECL
3, I`d say that once the extra "goodies" are thrown in, the gnoll, as
written above, should probably be ECL 2.

-Lord Rahvin

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[RaspK_FOG]

:) I guess you are right, most challenge ratings seem to be a bit screwed up...

A friend of mine has this problem, since in all of his campaigns his players manage to defeat even very strong foes (with a challenge rating higher than the average party level by 4, maybe 5!), even though this could be a mistake of my friend... Anyway, I believe wemics can be very good characters, only a bit unbalanced, but they do have a level adjustment, at least.

If you would like to incorporate a playable race which is not as strong as the wemics, you could design your own; I have done so for my campaign (still on the design process). If you are interested in it, please drop me an email (RaspK_FOG@yahoo.gr).

[Mark_Aurel]

I think assigning this gnoll an ECL 3 is extremely harsh, even with adding
"a couple of little goodies." Compare this Gnoll with a 3rd level
Dwarven(PHB) fighter:

...

I agree completely, actually. I think the gnoll in this case is a pretty lousy race - I personally would agree as they are now, they're a 2 ECL race, since their "race levels" are weaker than class levels, and the slightly improved ability adjustments help make up for that. I was simply quoting the book for the "official" stats, and translating those into a Savage Species format.

IMO, the best basis for comparison from the PHB is probably a half-orc, rather than a dwarf - they're more similar, so the comparison is easier. Of course, half-orcs are a bit too weak, and dwarves are a bit too good in terms of overall bonuses.

A gnoll, when compared to a 2nd-level half-orc fighter:

-Average about 1 hp less (3 hp less not considering Con bonus)
-Has +2 Str and +2 Con
-Has -1 BAB
-Has +1 natural armor
-Has two feats less

Overall, that seems a fair comparison to me. The strength bonus will cancel out the effective BAB penalty for melee purposes, though the gnoll will qualify for feats slower and gain extra iterative attacks a bit slower. The gnoll has +1 natural armor, which is a pretty good bonus for a low-level fighter; being a couple of feats behind stings a lot, of course. The gnoll effectively has a +1 bonus to damage, fort saves and AC over a half-orc fighter, and will gain more hp as he levels up - the cost is being a bit behind in combat prowess. Overall, I'd say the gnoll comes out slightly ahead, but not enough to warrant an ECL - boosting the half-orc a tad is more fun.

(And yes, there are no half-orcs in Kansas, but they're still the closest PHB ground for comparison.)

I think this is a case where the responsible designers erred a bit too much on the side of caution. Making sure that the PHB races remain playable is a good goal, though - essentially, it seems, they want you to choose between power (baseline races) or uniqueness (strange races).

I fully agree that this ECL should be based solely on hit dice, with no level adjustment - their stats are better than for other races, but their race levels are weak, and they don't gain much in the way of racial abilities to compensate for that, so "stats are it."

[Raesene Andu]

I will probably choose to go with a ECL 2 Gnoll, with the +2 Con at 1st level and the +2 Str at second and no other major changes. All of the race are a little more powerful than the standard anyway (as are the BR races, even the humans) so this should work out ok.

Now some other races, mostly new races I'm creating from the ground up. Here are a few ideas of what I'm looking at for racial abilities so far, I'm interested in comments and suggestions, especially any balance issues.

ASLA
(a panther-like humanoid race)

+2 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Cha
+1 Natural armour (fur)
Low light vision
Medium Size
Speed: 30ft

Proficient with unarmed combat and spear
Claw attack (1d4/1d4) if unarmed
+2 Spot, Listen, Wilderness Lore (jungle lore?)

Favoured Class: Ranger (male), Cleric (female)


QUALA
(a small reptilian race)

+2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Str
Small Size
Speed: 40ft (what does this effect?)
+8 skill points at 1st level, +2 skill points/additional level

Favoured Class: Rogue


SSARAK
(a race of snakemen)

+2 Int, +2 Cha
Dragon Blood (can cast true magic)
Constrict small and smaller creatures for 1d4+3 (after successful grapple)
Medium Size
Speed: 30ft
+2 natural armour (scales)

Favoured Class: Sorcerer


Then there will be the Wermics (although they will have a new name) and Beast-men, both are primarily monster or enemy races, but I'll try and make them available for PCs as well, and of course there will be the human tribes, up to 10 in fact.