Sources on the isle of Caelcorw

[Olesens]

the Falcon wrote:

> The one PC wizard IMC wants to create source holdings on the isle of
> Caelcorwynn as well as on Albiele Island.

Note that these two islands have remained unsettled for over a five hundred years.
There has to be a reason for this (For example: The isle of Talme off Ilien is
unsettled because it is volcanic rock, which sucks for farming). Pirates? Shadow
world portal?

> Both islands are well within
> 150 miles of his sources in the Erebannien, so he could forge a ley line
> to them. Since both Caelcorwynn and Albiele both aren't provinces and
> thus are quite untouched by civilization, I'd say he could probably
> establish a source on both of em and eventually rule those sources to
> level 9, provided someone doesn't do a create province on them in the
> meanwhile and rule down the magic ratings.

I'd personally keep the source value at its terrain max (5 for plains, etc) and not
grant it any bonuses. After all, a province (0) has so few people it doesn't even
effect the land. As for creating holdings in a "nonexsistent" province, the rules
are blank. Technically, you can only create holdings in established provinces. It
makes no sence to me (well, for source holdings at least). I would allow my wizard
to treat the province as a level 0 for purposes of creating source holdings, but
there would be no extra benefits.

>
> But what are the limits on establishing "overseas" holdings? I mean, can
> anyone from coastlands of Anuire just create a holding in Mieres?

Why not? I would limit the range of overseas holdings by, say, ten to twenty sea
areas. The reasoning for this is that the regent would need to transfer money and
workers by boat in several trips.

> Or in
> any other coastal province for that matter? Come to that, the Rulebook
> doesn't even give limits for creating holdings in landlocked realms. If I
> were to take the rules literally, regents could only create holdings in
> those provinces where they already or of which they are ruler.

I don't follow you here...

> Also, the
> Rulebook say that creating a province that isn't adjacent to any of the
> provinces you already own, costs thrice as much as normal. However, it
> doesn't state what's "normal".

Yes it does. Normal is 1 GB, so an overseas or noadjacent province costs 3 GB.
The Base Cost for Create Holding is 1 GB. This applies to both forms (Create
Holding and Create Province). I would say that a scion doing create holding to
make a province would treat it as adjacent, and thus need 1 GB. On his next turn
he could rule it to level 1 (which costs no RP) then he'd start getting a regency
pool. Later he could create another province next to his current one for 1 GB or
one on a nearby island for 3 GB.

>
> So, as you can see, I'm desperately looking for advice. Please feel free
> to give any.

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Mon, 15 Feb 1999, the Falcon wrote:

> The one PC wizard IMC wants to create source holdings on the isle of
> Caelcorwynn as well as on Albiele Island. Both islands are well within
> 150 miles of his sources in the Erebannien, so he could forge a ley line
> to them. Since both Caelcorwynn and Albiele both aren't provinces and
> thus are quite untouched by civilization, I'd say he could probably
> establish a source on both of em and eventually rule those sources to
> level 9, provided someone doesn't do a create province on them in the
> meanwhile and rule down the magic ratings.

I definitely agree that there should be a REASON why these islands are not
populated. The PC should have to adventure on those islands before being
allowed to set up holdings. There are certainly other residents if no
humans. There may be ogres, Rocs, a dragon, a solitary Awnsheighlein, a
lost colony, hermits of Nesirie, strongholds of mer-people, a goblin
tribe (perhaps lost and stranded after Deismaar), or any number of things.
If a PC of mine were to try to set up a holding in unknown territory, I
would make sure he knew the meaning of "Here Be Monsters." Let his set up
the holding, and then two months later tell him it suddenly disappears.
The hint will be gotten.

I would also point out that the only place where it says that ley lines
can be formed over oceans is in the Zweilund Island mage area of the
Havens expansion. IMC, I have ruled that this is because the Island Mage
has put in the research time to figure it out. If PC's want to do it, they
can either put in the time themselves or haul their butts over the
Brechtur and ask nicely.

> But what are the limits on establishing "overseas" holdings? I mean, can
> anyone from coastlands of Anuire just create a holding in Mieres? Or in
> any other coastal province for that matter? Come to that, the Rulebook
> doesn't even give limits for creating holdings in landlocked realms. If I
> were to take the rules literally, regents could only create holdings in
> those provinces where they already or of which they are ruler. Also, the
> Rulebook say that creating a province that isn't adjacent to any of the
> provinces you already own, costs thrice as much as normal. However, it
> doesn't state what's "normal".

Perhaps the best thing is to say that they have to "tame" the land first
(i.e. make it into a province holding) which the wizard would own, if he
was the one who did the effort. It would be a province 0, but that would
suit most wizards fine. Perhaps he might even consider ruling it up to
raise some money, or offer it to his leige (assuming he has one) in return
for some other special favors.

[Kenneth Gauck]

Your Wizard could take the step of creating those provinces, leaving them at
level 0, and then creating source holdings. One of the advantages is no one
can come along and just rule them up, they must invade your realm. If your
a wizard of note, that is not likely.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net

[JulesMrshn@aol.co]

To have a regent create a holding on a non-province is not something I would
allow. I would make them create a province to establish a connection to the
land in that area. If they don't create the province and put up a stink, the
Wizard recieves no regency from the source. Regency is based on people, and no
people mean no regency.

As to ley lines and water, I tend to discourage wizards from using this. I
give them a hefty penalty and require as many RPs to maintain as the source it
is linked to. A level 3 source on Caelcorwyn means 3 RPs to maintain ley line.
This is just a pesonal preferance, or else the gorgon could work an intricate
system underwater to the Imperial city... I know many a rule abuser, so I
always approach rules looking for ways to abuse them.

[Mathieu Roy]

JulesMrshn@aol.com wrote:

> To have a regent create a holding on a non-province is not something I would
> allow. I would make them create a province to establish a connection to the
> land in that area. If they don't create the province and put up a stink, the
> Wizard recieves no regency from the source. Regency is based on people, and no
> people mean no regency.

Uh, but a source doesn't mean people. In fact, the more people, the weaker the
source will tend to be.

Mathieu

[JulesMrshn@aol.co]

In a message dated 99-02-16 02:00:42 EST, you write:

[Mathieu Roy]

JulesMrshn@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 99-02-16 02:00:42 EST, you write:
>
>

[JulesMrshn@aol.co]

Unfortuantly the rulebook states:
Even wizards gain power from the respect of the masses. No masses, no power.

[the Falcon]

> Note that these two islands have remained unsettled for over a five hundred years.
> There has to be a reason for this (For example: The isle of Talme off Ilien is
> unsettled because it is volcanic rock, which sucks for farming). Pirates? Shadow
> world portal?

To me, the isle of Talme off of the coast of Ilien is unsettle because
it's just so freakin small. That's the way I see it. Anyways, the prime
reason why I was askin you people in the list on the subject above, is
that no other mage has any sources on them, and I wondered why.

> I'd personally keep the source value at its terrain max (5 for plains, etc) and not
> grant it any bonuses. After all, a province (0) has so few people it doesn't even
> effect the land. As for creating holdings in a "nonexsistent" province, the rules
> are blank. Technically, you can only create holdings in established provinces. It
> makes no sence to me (well, for source holdings at least). I would allow my wizard
> to treat the province as a level 0 for purposes of creating source holdings, but
> there would be no extra benefits.

But how dificult and how costly would it be for the wizard? I mean, after
all those isles aren't what you would call adjacent provinces (well, at
least not according to the rules). Anyways, I agree that the source could
never exceed the magic potential - but that was never in question.
However, I would consider both of the isle's terrain types as ancient
forest. Am I right in this?

> Why not? I would limit the range of overseas holdings by, say, ten to twenty sea
> areas. The reasoning for this is that the regent would need to transfer money and
> workers by boat in several trips.

What about creating holdings in landlocked realms? What would constitute,
and I quote from the Rulebook, "an eligible province"?

> I don't follow you here...

In the Rulebook it says that you can create holdings in any eligible
province. But what's an eligible province? It also states that creating
a province that isn't adjacent to one of your own costs thrice as much.
Now supposing that not-adjacent-thrice-as-much rule also applies to
creating holdings, would the ruler of a coastal domain be able to create a
holding in the midst of central Anuire just by paying thrice as much, for
example?

> Yes it does. Normal is 1 GB, so an overseas or noadjacent province costs 3 GB.
> The Base Cost for Create Holding is 1 GB. This applies to both forms (Create
> Holding and Create Province). I would say that a scion doing create holding to
> make a province would treat it as adjacent, and thus need 1 GB. On his next turn
> he could rule it to level 1 (which costs no RP) then he'd start getting a regency
> pool. Later he could create another province next to his current one for 1 GB or
> one on a nearby island for 3 GB.

So it's awfully cheap to create a province then, isn't it? Hey, it's just
as easy as creating a holding. Then how come Caelcorwynn and Albiele
haven't been colonized by now?

Oh, and as an aside, has it ever occured to anyone if you that the court
wizard of Rhuannach (sp?) is called Caelcorwynn as well? I wonder if he's
anything to do with that island of the same name...

Also it reminds me of the fact that there's a male human bard in the
Realms called Llewellynn, and a female human noble on the Spelljammer
called Llewellynn as well, while on the Cerilian languages cardsheet in
the Birthright box Llewellyn is listed as a name for females elves.
Curiouser and curiouser... Consistency? We did away with that years
ago... :)

- the Falcon

[the Falcon]

> I definitely agree that there should be a REASON why these islands are not
> populated. The PC should have to adventure on those islands before being
> allowed to set up holdings. There are certainly other residents if no
> humans. There may be ogres, Rocs, a dragon, a solitary Awnsheighlein, a
> lost colony, hermits of Nesirie, strongholds of mer-people, a goblin
> tribe (perhaps lost and stranded after Deismaar), or any number of things.
> If a PC of mine were to try to set up a holding in unknown territory, I
> would make sure he knew the meaning of "Here Be Monsters." Let his set up
> the holding, and then two months later tell him it suddenly disappears.
> The hint will be gotten.

Oh no, definitely not - the hint will be totally lost. I don't see my
players figurin stuff like that within a hundred years, especially because
they have they failed to do so quite so many times before. They'll just
grumble and complain a little, but then they'll just take it the way it is
and blame it on DM whimsy. They'll just assume that I decided it's
impossible and look for easier pickings elsewhere.
Then again, to be honest, sometimes one or more of them suddenly spark an
exceptionally bright idea, so it might be possible for them to get the
hint. Heck, sometimes they come up with plans so intricate that I have to
think quite more than twice before I can even start to think of something
that might be a good response to it. Of course, I'm a very bad tactician
and I suck greatly in the strategic department, but that as an aside.
OK - so they might take the hint. But let's just assume they don't. Or
come up with such a hideously devious plan that I can't even begin to
fathom it. What then? Or in other words: are there any other options?
Besides, the locals destroying source holdings? That would seem a little
odd to me. Hell, they wouldn't even know the source holding was there.
Unless they're all mighty wizards and such, but then they would have
their own source holdings there.
Mmm... Maybe I'm just makin this more dificult than it is...
Your thoughts, anyways.

> I would also point out that the only place where it says that ley lines
> can be formed over oceans is in the Zweilund Island mage area of the
> Havens expansion. IMC, I have ruled that this is because the Island Mage
> has put in the research time to figure it out. If PC's want to do it, they
> can either put in the time themselves or haul their butts over the
> Brechtur and ask nicely.

Nope, thrice nope, and yet another nope. The Book of Magecraft clearly
states that ley lines can be forged across bodies of water, as long as it
doesn't take you more than 150 miles to reach the opposite shore.

> Perhaps the best thing is to say that they have to "tame" the land first
> (i.e. make it into a province holding) which the wizard would own, if he
> was the one who did the effort. It would be a province 0, but that would
> suit most wizards fine. Perhaps he might even consider ruling it up to
> raise some money, or offer it to his leige (assuming he has one) in return
> for some other special favors.

Mmm... Sounds like a good idea. But... "taming" the land to create a
source holding? Why, that sounds an awful lot like reverse psychology to
me...

- the Falcon