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Thread: Alignment (Again?!)
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10-09-1997, 01:16 PM #11GalwylinGuest
Alignment (Again?!)
At 07:40 PM 10/8/98 -0700, Gary V. Foss wrote:
>
>You're right. Civilian casualties are much more prevalent than I
portrayed in my
>post. As you say, in ancient times when the distinction between civilian and
>soldier was much more ill-defined, so killing one over the other was not as
>distinctly defined. In the 20th century when front lines became very
broad and
>deep, including everything within the range of air power.
There was a period where war was given some strange rules. Soldiers lined
up, aimed their rifles, and fired into the enemy line. People would bring
lawn chairs and have picnics while they watched the 'battle'. War became
civilized. Then back to uncivilized. I don't know what our 'push botton'
wars of today would be.
>As for which moral system to use... well, I'd say use them all. What I
mean by
>that is that much of the morality that we use today is based on morality
developed
>thousands of years ago. Honestly, I don't see people having a higher moral
>standard now than they did in the time of Socrates.
Maybe not a higher moral but life isn't viewed the same way. Some cultures
would make ammends to someone they offended by offering the life of a slave
or even a child. I do hope that our standard are higher that the time of
Socrates. I'm certain that women were still property then and slaves were
owned. Neither had a right to participate in the Athenian democracy. And
we get much of our morality from the Bible that once taught people to stone
their children until the New Testament brought a religion based on
pacifism. Then that would be corrupted by when a pope sanctioned war for
the first time when turn the other cheek had always been so prevalent
through the Christian religion. Not meaning to offend anyone but morality
has always been in constant change that who can guess what the future view
of our own time will be.
At 09:31 PM 10/8/98 -0700, swords wrote:
>
>I think this still needs to be looked at from the elves point of view.
Agreed.
>For a better point of view look at Bosnia and Serbia the
>people of that area have been fighting each other for several years now and
>the origin of that war is several hundred years old.
Even though that is does show humans have long memories, I still find that
hard to understand.
>In my last one I think I did talk myself in circles but I don't think the GS
>are evil just the ones that are most noted such as Rhoube.
An interesting comparison could be made of the NRA. Three children died
recently because of them yet I'm positive the group isn't made up of
totally evil people. The gheallie Sidhe is just as complex. We may never
understand it but it would be a mistake to write it off as completely evil.
Remember the old saying, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
When do those good intentions become evil?
At 02:45 AM 10/9/98 EDT, Shadewulf@aol.com wrote:
>
>Which is good, in my eyes, because we can view things in a different light,
>and perhaps learn from the experience. I do not believe anyone is fully (note
>that, please) capable of going outside oneself and trying to place oneself in
>another's situation and say they are them, in the individual or plural
sense.
I'd agree with that. We can come away with an idea of why they feel and
act as they do. But you can't completely abosrb a thought process. But
it's not impossible to understand enough that you are able to convey some
of that to an audience. Acting is based on that and I'm sure we've all
seen example of bad acting where there is no idea of motivation of a
character. But then, gaming isn't acting, is it?
This has been a Galwylin® Production
galwylin@airnet.net
http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/
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10-09-1997, 04:58 PM #12GalwylinGuest
Alignment (Again?!)
Daniel caught a mistype of mine in a post made earlier. I had typed NRA
when it should have been the IRA when talking about a recent event in Ireland.
This has been a Galwylin® Production
galwylin@airnet.net
http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/
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10-09-1997, 10:53 PM #13GalwylinGuest
Alignment (Again?!)
At 06:36 AM 10/9/98 -0700, Gary V. Foss wrote:
>
>I think what you are describing is definitely a shift in behavior, but I
don't
>think that's any change in morality.
Sorry, Gary, but I have to disagree. Behavior is ruled by morality. A
person that lived 1000 years ago would be shocked at today's morals. And
most likely, we'd be shocked at some of theirs. I think you're looking at
alignments correctly though. They are absolute. Good today was good
yesterday. What's changed is the interpretation which is morality. The
debate about the gheallie Sidhe (both sides making excellent points, I
think) shows that morality is not absolute even to people living in the
same society during the same times. Someone from a different society will
probably see a different view of what is moral.
This has been a Galwylin® Production
galwylin@airnet.net
http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/
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10-09-1997, 11:55 PM #14GalwylinGuest
Alignment (Again?!)
At 05:52 PM 10/9/98 EDT, DKEvermore@aol.com wrote:
>
>Point 1) Elves still see elven awnshegh as still "elven". So why not
humans?
Aren't the awnshegh a result of humans and their gods?
>As for you village full of sleeping people and army point: Sure one is an
>already assembled army, and the other is a _potential_ army. Get real. The
>GS will fight the battles it can win.
I think the only way to prove the gheallie Sidhe is not evil is to prove
its at least noble in the eyes of the elves. I can understand the view of
a potential threat but couldn't accept that an attack on a village is noble
because its a fight they can win. There should be battles fought that they
can't win.
This has been a Galwylin® Production
galwylin@airnet.net
http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/
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10-06-1998, 07:38 PM #15The OlesensGuest
Alignment (Again?!)
I was brainstroming a charachter for the new gheallie Sidhe PBeM when I came across our
good old friend alignment. Now don't think-just answer the question, are the elves of the
gheallie Sidhe evil?
You said yes, right? Before you think about it.
Yes they do do evil things but for a 'good' cause. After all, the humans devastated
several large tracts of woodlands, tore up the land with thier wars, and betrayed the
elves after thier assistance in the anti-goblinoid wars. So then humanity as a whole is
evil, right? But who defines good and evil? There are such things as just and unjust
causes but even they can depend on PoV (Point of View). In WWII were the Japanese bad
(evil)? They started a war to enlarge thier power and killed many with thier greedy
desires. Or did they seek to bring Japanese prosperity and technology to the rest of the
Pacific? But the Americans fought back thier evil desires. Or did the US kill millions
of Japanese by using nuclear weapons because they were too weak to fight a civilized war
(I know they weren't weak). I know I may be wrong in some little things here but my point
is, good and evil; bad and good; are quite often based on your PoV. Just my 2 ep.
- -Andrew
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10-06-1998, 09:04 PM #16GalwylinGuest
Alignment (Again?!)
At 03:38 PM 10/6/98 -0400, The Olesens wrote:
>
>I know I may be wrong in some little things here but my point
>is, good and evil; bad and good; are quite often based on your PoV. Just
my 2 ep.
This is a quote I picked up off the Mystara list made by Frank Mentzer. I
thought some might find it interesting on the subject.
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10-06-1998, 09:13 PM #17David Sean BrownGuest
Alignment (Again?!)
> I was brainstroming a charachter for the new gheallie Sidhe PBeM when I came across our
> good old friend alignment. Now don't think-just answer the question, are the elves of the
> gheallie Sidhe evil?
>
> You said yes, right? Before you think about it.
>
> Yes they do do evil things but for a 'good' cause. After all, the humans devastated
I think we already touched on this topic a bit..some people (me being one
of them) think that no matter what the reason, and "evil" act is an "evil"
act. Kinda like them Christians using square bullets on the
heathens..just because somehting is acceptable at the time or for a good
reason doesn't make the act, or by extension, the person, and less evil
for doing it.
Sean
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10-06-1998, 10:19 PM #18einarh@fagerborg.vgs.nGuest
Alignment (Again?!)
>I was brainstroming a charachter for the new gheallie Sidhe PBeM when I
came across our
>good old friend alignment. Now don't think-just answer the question, are
the elves of the
>gheallie Sidhe evil?
>
>You said yes, right? Before you think about it.
>
>Yes they do do evil things but for a 'good' cause. After all, the humans
devastated
>several large tracts of woodlands, tore up the land with thier wars, and
betrayed the
>elves after thier assistance in the anti-goblinoid wars. So then humanity
as a whole is
>evil, right? But who defines good and evil? There are such things as
just and unjust
>causes but even they can depend on PoV (Point of View). In WWII were the
Japanese bad
>(evil)? They started a war to enlarge thier power and killed many with
thier greedy
>desires. Or did they seek to bring Japanese prosperity and technology to
the rest of the
>Pacific? But the Americans fought back thier evil desires. Or did the US
kill millions
>of Japanese by using nuclear weapons because they were too weak to fight a
civilized war
>(I know they weren't weak). I know I may be wrong in some little things
here but my point
>is, good and evil; bad and good; are quite often based on your PoV. Just
my 2 ep.
>
>-Andrew
Not to mention the priests helping hands during the imperialism LOL
Hey, the King of Belgium cut off hands in Congo with the priests
blessings. Yet, priests were still viewed upon as 'good'.
Siebharrin
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10-07-1998, 12:49 AM #19BenandAmyGuest
Alignment (Again?!)
- -----Original Message-----
From: The Olesens
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 3:18 PM
Subject: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Alignment (Again?!)
>I was brainstroming a charachter for the new gheallie Sidhe PBeM when I
came across our
>good old friend alignment. Now don't think-just answer the question, are
the elves of the
>gheallie Sidhe evil?
>
>You said yes, right? Before you think about it.
>
>Yes they do do evil things but for a 'good' cause. After all, the humans
devastated
>several large tracts of woodlands, tore up the land with thier wars, and
betrayed the
>elves after thier assistance in the anti-goblinoid wars. So then humanity
as a whole is
>evil, right? But who defines good and evil? There are such things as just
and unjust
>causes but even they can depend on PoV (Point of View). In WWII were the
Japanese bad
>(evil)? They started a war to enlarge thier power and killed many with
thier greedy
>desires. Or did they seek to bring Japanese prosperity and technology to
the rest of the
>Pacific? But the Americans fought back thier evil desires. Or did the US
kill millions
>of Japanese by using nuclear weapons because they were too weak to fight a
civilized war
>(I know they weren't weak). I know I may be wrong in some little things
here but my point
>is, good and evil; bad and good; are quite often based on your PoV. Just
my 2 ep.
>
>
Through the last few discussions here, I have come to the conclusion
that I'll keep alignment and politics apart. I think the elves could very
well have a good alignment and view their acts as "righteous
judgement"--much the same way as a paladin of Haelyn might feel about
exterminating a gnoll war camp. Go ahead and make them good or neutral.
I think aligning oneself with a political group (like the Gheallie Sidhe
or a nation, etc.) does not preclude any particular alignment. It all
depends on what the character's perspective and experience in life is.
Hope this helps!
Ben
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10-07-1998, 04:07 AM #20Samuel WeissGuest
Alignment (Again?!)
The Olesons (Andrew) wrote,
>Now don't think-just answer the question, are the elves of the
gheallie Sidhe evil?
You said yes, right? Before you think about it.
Yes they do do evil things but for a 'good' cause. After all, the humans
devastated
several large tracts of woodlands, tore up the land with thier wars, and
betrayed the
elves after thier assistance in the anti-goblinoid wars. So then humanity
as a whole is
evil, right? But who defines good and evil? There are such things as just
and unjust
causes but even they can depend on PoV (Point of View). In WWII were the
Japanese bad (evil)? They started a war to enlarge thier power and killed
many with thier greedy
desires. Or did they seek to bring Japanese prosperity and technology to
the rest of the Pacific? But the Americans fought back thier evil desires.
Or did the US kill millions of Japanese by using nuclear weapons because
they were too weak to fight a civilized war (I know they weren't weak). I
know I may be wrong in some little things here but my point is, good and
evil; bad and good; are quite often based on your PoV.<
OK, first, the Japanese had no intention of sharing their technology and
prosperity with anyone. They wanted more slaves to fuel their domestic
prosperity and cared very little for what it cost any other peoples in
wealth or lives. Was every single Japanese person completely corrupt because
of this? No. But there was a breakdown in the morality of the people in
charge of their nation, and as such, their government ordered very many Evil
acts, and the people who carried those acts out were Evil.
Start there, and get any ideas of a benevolent expansion out the way to
start.
Second, addressing this issue of human betrayal and such. Let us say that
someone here had relatives who suffered at the hands of the Japanese during
WWII. Let us say that person takes issue with what you wrote. Since you are
"obviously" Evil to even think of writing about Japan's intentions in a good
light, obviously that person is perfectly justified in heading on over and
raping your wife and cutting your children into little pieces. In fact,
while they are having such a good time, they can head on over to your
brother's house and do the same with his family. And your sister's. And all
your neighbor's, because hey, if they weren't as bad (Evil) as you, they
wouldn't live next to you right?
If you now understand why the Gheallie Sidhe is mostly Evil, and why POV has
nothing to with Good and Evil then you understand. If not, I suggest
counseling quickly before you begin acting on such beliefs.
I will also repeat for those who don't get it, that good and bad are ALWAYS
dependant upon POV. Those two are completely different from Good and Evil
however. Someone can want something that is bad for me without being Evil.
Someone can want something good for me without being Good.
Now note, as I mentioned above, the Gheallie Sidhe is MOSTLY Evil. No doubt
some members act to stop human encroachments without commiting atrocities of
one stripe or another in the process. There has to be at least one anyway.
But for me to walk outside tomorrow and murder a person of German descent
because I am Jewish and Hitler was German and from my POV... is wrong
morally and therefore Evil.
Indeed, thinking about it further, what you have is a breakdown in logic.
You are assuming:
Human A = Evil.
Human A = All Humans.
All Humans = Evil.
The second is a false assumption leading to a false conclusion. And, "But
that's what I believe" is not an excuse, or an explanation. At best it is a
mental disorder. (Sociopath or psychopath.) It is still Evil even then.
Samwise
(Oh, and if anyone feels offended about my making the example direct and
personal, too bad. Justifying Evil because it is someone's "POV" is
extremely offensive to me, and should be to any normal person. Yes, it is
"just" a game. But it becomes continually obvious that many people project
these beliefs onto the real world, they simply haven't acted upon them yet.
I say again, if you believe it is all POV, get help now. it's not.)
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