Alignment (Again?!)

[The Olesens]

I was brainstroming a charachter for the new gheallie Sidhe PBeM when I came across our
good old friend alignment. Now don't think-just answer the question, are the elves of the
gheallie Sidhe evil?

You said yes, right? Before you think about it.

Yes they do do evil things but for a 'good' cause. After all, the humans devastated
several large tracts of woodlands, tore up the land with thier wars, and betrayed the
elves after thier assistance in the anti-goblinoid wars. So then humanity as a whole is
evil, right? But who defines good and evil? There are such things as just and unjust
causes but even they can depend on PoV (Point of View). In WWII were the Japanese bad
(evil)? They started a war to enlarge thier power and killed many with thier greedy
desires. Or did they seek to bring Japanese prosperity and technology to the rest of the
Pacific? But the Americans fought back thier evil desires. Or did the US kill millions
of Japanese by using nuclear weapons because they were too weak to fight a civilized war
(I know they weren't weak). I know I may be wrong in some little things here but my point
is, good and evil; bad and good; are quite often based on your PoV. Just my 2 ep.

- -Andrew

[Galwylin]

At 03:38 PM 10/6/98 -0400, The Olesens wrote:
>
>I know I may be wrong in some little things here but my point
>is, good and evil; bad and good; are quite often based on your PoV. Just
my 2 ep.

This is a quote I picked up off the Mystara list made by Frank Mentzer. I
thought some might find it interesting on the subject.

[David Sean Brown]

> I was brainstroming a charachter for the new gheallie Sidhe PBeM when I came across our
> good old friend alignment. Now don't think-just answer the question, are the elves of the
> gheallie Sidhe evil?
>
> You said yes, right? Before you think about it.
>
> Yes they do do evil things but for a 'good' cause. After all, the humans devastated

I think we already touched on this topic a bit..some people (me being one
of them) think that no matter what the reason, and "evil" act is an "evil"
act. Kinda like them Christians using square bullets on the
heathens..just because somehting is acceptable at the time or for a good
reason doesn't make the act, or by extension, the person, and less evil
for doing it.

Sean

[einarh@fagerborg.vgs.n]

>I was brainstroming a charachter for the new gheallie Sidhe PBeM when I
came across our
>good old friend alignment. Now don't think-just answer the question, are
the elves of the
>gheallie Sidhe evil?
>
>You said yes, right? Before you think about it.
>
>Yes they do do evil things but for a 'good' cause. After all, the humans
devastated
>several large tracts of woodlands, tore up the land with thier wars, and
betrayed the
>elves after thier assistance in the anti-goblinoid wars. So then humanity
as a whole is
>evil, right? But who defines good and evil? There are such things as
just and unjust
>causes but even they can depend on PoV (Point of View). In WWII were the
Japanese bad
>(evil)? They started a war to enlarge thier power and killed many with
thier greedy
>desires. Or did they seek to bring Japanese prosperity and technology to
the rest of the
>Pacific? But the Americans fought back thier evil desires. Or did the US
kill millions
>of Japanese by using nuclear weapons because they were too weak to fight a
civilized war
>(I know they weren't weak). I know I may be wrong in some little things
here but my point
>is, good and evil; bad and good; are quite often based on your PoV. Just
my 2 ep.
>
>-Andrew

Not to mention the priests helping hands during the imperialism LOL
Hey, the King of Belgium cut off hands in Congo with the priests
blessings. Yet, priests were still viewed upon as 'good'.

Siebharrin

[BenandAmy]

- -----Original Message-----
From: The Olesens
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 3:18 PM
Subject: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Alignment (Again?!)


>I was brainstroming a charachter for the new gheallie Sidhe PBeM when I
came across our
>good old friend alignment. Now don't think-just answer the question, are
the elves of the
>gheallie Sidhe evil?
>
>You said yes, right? Before you think about it.
>
>Yes they do do evil things but for a 'good' cause. After all, the humans
devastated
>several large tracts of woodlands, tore up the land with thier wars, and
betrayed the
>elves after thier assistance in the anti-goblinoid wars. So then humanity
as a whole is
>evil, right? But who defines good and evil? There are such things as just
and unjust
>causes but even they can depend on PoV (Point of View). In WWII were the
Japanese bad
>(evil)? They started a war to enlarge thier power and killed many with
thier greedy
>desires. Or did they seek to bring Japanese prosperity and technology to
the rest of the
>Pacific? But the Americans fought back thier evil desires. Or did the US
kill millions
>of Japanese by using nuclear weapons because they were too weak to fight a
civilized war
>(I know they weren't weak). I know I may be wrong in some little things
here but my point
>is, good and evil; bad and good; are quite often based on your PoV. Just
my 2 ep.
>
>
Through the last few discussions here, I have come to the conclusion
that I'll keep alignment and politics apart. I think the elves could very
well have a good alignment and view their acts as "righteous
judgement"--much the same way as a paladin of Haelyn might feel about
exterminating a gnoll war camp. Go ahead and make them good or neutral.
I think aligning oneself with a political group (like the Gheallie Sidhe
or a nation, etc.) does not preclude any particular alignment. It all
depends on what the character's perspective and experience in life is.

Hope this helps!


Ben

[Samuel Weiss]

The Olesons (Andrew) wrote,

>Now don't think-just answer the question, are the elves of the
gheallie Sidhe evil?

You said yes, right? Before you think about it.

Yes they do do evil things but for a 'good' cause. After all, the humans
devastated
several large tracts of woodlands, tore up the land with thier wars, and
betrayed the
elves after thier assistance in the anti-goblinoid wars. So then humanity
as a whole is
evil, right? But who defines good and evil? There are such things as just
and unjust
causes but even they can depend on PoV (Point of View). In WWII were the
Japanese bad (evil)? They started a war to enlarge thier power and killed
many with thier greedy
desires. Or did they seek to bring Japanese prosperity and technology to
the rest of the Pacific? But the Americans fought back thier evil desires.
Or did the US kill millions of Japanese by using nuclear weapons because
they were too weak to fight a civilized war (I know they weren't weak). I
know I may be wrong in some little things here but my point is, good and
evil; bad and good; are quite often based on your PoV.<

OK, first, the Japanese had no intention of sharing their technology and
prosperity with anyone. They wanted more slaves to fuel their domestic
prosperity and cared very little for what it cost any other peoples in
wealth or lives. Was every single Japanese person completely corrupt because
of this? No. But there was a breakdown in the morality of the people in
charge of their nation, and as such, their government ordered very many Evil
acts, and the people who carried those acts out were Evil.
Start there, and get any ideas of a benevolent expansion out the way to
start.
Second, addressing this issue of human betrayal and such. Let us say that
someone here had relatives who suffered at the hands of the Japanese during
WWII. Let us say that person takes issue with what you wrote. Since you are
"obviously" Evil to even think of writing about Japan's intentions in a good
light, obviously that person is perfectly justified in heading on over and
raping your wife and cutting your children into little pieces. In fact,
while they are having such a good time, they can head on over to your
brother's house and do the same with his family. And your sister's. And all
your neighbor's, because hey, if they weren't as bad (Evil) as you, they
wouldn't live next to you right?
If you now understand why the Gheallie Sidhe is mostly Evil, and why POV has
nothing to with Good and Evil then you understand. If not, I suggest
counseling quickly before you begin acting on such beliefs.
I will also repeat for those who don't get it, that good and bad are ALWAYS
dependant upon POV. Those two are completely different from Good and Evil
however. Someone can want something that is bad for me without being Evil.
Someone can want something good for me without being Good.
Now note, as I mentioned above, the Gheallie Sidhe is MOSTLY Evil. No doubt
some members act to stop human encroachments without commiting atrocities of
one stripe or another in the process. There has to be at least one anyway.
But for me to walk outside tomorrow and murder a person of German descent
because I am Jewish and Hitler was German and from my POV... is wrong
morally and therefore Evil.
Indeed, thinking about it further, what you have is a breakdown in logic.
You are assuming:
Human A = Evil.
Human A = All Humans.
All Humans = Evil.
The second is a false assumption leading to a false conclusion. And, "But
that's what I believe" is not an excuse, or an explanation. At best it is a
mental disorder. (Sociopath or psychopath.) It is still Evil even then.

Samwise
(Oh, and if anyone feels offended about my making the example direct and
personal, too bad. Justifying Evil because it is someone's "POV" is
extremely offensive to me, and should be to any normal person. Yes, it is
"just" a game. But it becomes continually obvious that many people project
these beliefs onto the real world, they simply haven't acted upon them yet.
I say again, if you believe it is all POV, get help now. it's not.)

[Daniel McSorley]

From: The Olesens
>I was brainstroming a charachter for the new gheallie Sidhe PBeM when I
came across our
>good old friend alignment. Now don't think-just answer the question, are
the elves of the
>gheallie Sidhe evil?
>
>You said yes, right? Before you think about it.
>
I said yes, before, during, and after thinking about it, thanks (Since
you specified).

>Yes they do do evil things but for a 'good' cause. After all, the humans
devastated
>several large tracts of woodlands, tore up the land with thier wars, and
betrayed the
>elves after thier assistance in the anti-goblinoid wars. So then humanity
as a whole is
>evil, right?
You could make a case for those specific humans that killed helpless
elflings and betrayed alliances as being evil. That is not generalizable to
humanity as a whole, this is a blatant use of induction (generalizing to a
whole from some specific instances), which led to prejudice, bigotry, and
then attempted genocide on the part of the GS, and is not logically
supportable by any proof. This is historically the cause of much bigotry in
real life, and is just as illogical no matter whether used in a fantasy
setting or against some group of people in real life, I'll let you fill in
your own examples.

>But who defines good and evil?
Good and evil are absolute, they don't need to be defined, just like lying
vs telling the truth, the truth is not relative, neither is Good and Evil.

>There are such things as just and unjust
>causes but even they can depend on PoV (Point of View). In WWII were the
Japanese bad
>(evil)? They started a war to enlarge thier power and killed many with
thier greedy
>desires.
This is what they did....

> Or did they seek to bring Japanese prosperity and technology to the rest
of the
>Pacific?
That is the spin they tried to put on it. The reasons they tried to explain
it with don't matter, the actions speak for themselves.

>I know I may be wrong in some little things here but my point
>is, good and evil; bad and good; are quite often based on your PoV.
No, they are not. Someone may perceive something Evil as a "good"
thing, but that doesn't make it good, that makes them, at least disturbed,
if not downright Evil themselves. The same goes for a society. Every
society probably would like to see itself as "good", but on an absolute
scale, there have been some downright despicable, Evil groups of people
floating around.
On the GS in specific: they might not have started off as overtly Evil.
Defense of your people is not evil by any measure, so when they were
fighting and slaying invading human warriors, they were firmly in the right.
When they found that not enough, and started slaughtering those who weren't
a threat to them (like villagers and tradesmen), in an effort to drive
humanity away, they became evil.
So, there might be a good elf or two in the GS. But, they will probably
not remain in it long, because the slaughter of innocent people will be
pretty repulsive to them. The only way I could see a good elf remaining in
it long term was if he was trying to reform it into more of a warrior group
than a ravening pack of bandits.

Daniel McSorley- mcsorley.1@osu.edu

[Galwylin]

At 01:58 AM 10/7/98 -0400, Daniel McSorley wrote:
>
> On the GS in specific: they might not have started off as overtly Evil.
>Defense of your people is not evil by any measure, so when they were
>fighting and slaying invading human warriors, they were firmly in the right.
>When they found that not enough, and started slaughtering those who weren't
>a threat to them (like villagers and tradesmen), in an effort to drive
>humanity away, they became evil.

I think everyone is taking this just a little to serious. But this part
did catch my eye. It caught my eye because it reminded me of the actions
of some Native Americans in the United States. I don't know how everything
can be so cut-n-dry because I don't see it that way. A few Native
Americans slaughtered innocences as white men took their lands and
destroyed their tribes. I don't think it was a good act but it was one
born out of desperation and inability to find a way to work with them. In
the end, a greater evil was done to them. I see the Sidhelien situation to
be very similiar and the gheallie Sidhe to be a reaction to the lies,
betrayals, theft of their land, and death they've recieved. Its a war
between humans and elves. Evil touches every side in war. Victors write
the history so we'll just have to wait and see what they say about the
gheallie Sidhe.

This has been a Galwylin® Production

galwylin@airnet.net
http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/

[Samuel Weiss]

Galwylin wrote,

>It caught my eye because it reminded me of the actions
of some Native Americans in the United States. I don't know how everything
can be so cut-n-dry because I don't see it that way. A few Native
Americans slaughtered innocences as white men took their lands and
destroyed their tribes. I don't think it was a good act but it was one
born out of desperation and inability to find a way to work with them. In
the end, a greater evil was done to them. I see the Sidhelien situation to
be very similiar and the gheallie Sidhe to be a reaction to the lies,
betrayals, theft of their land, and death they've recieved. Its a war
between humans and elves. Evil touches every side in war.<

Nietzsche wrote,

"When fighting monsters, one beware lesta monster one become. And when
looking in to the Abyss, be careful because the Abyss looks also into you."

Let me understand your point. Because someone did Evil to you and yours, it
is OK for you to do Evil to otherwise univolved people because of some
realtion they have to the people who did Evil to you?
OK, so a person who has been abused as a child grows up to be a child
molestor. Your Uncle's neighbor was abused as a child. Therefore, it is OK
for me to kill you, because a relative of yours lives next to a person, who
suffered the same as this other guy, who became an Evil piece of filth.
Wow, cool. Hey, By those standards, I could go out and kill just about
anyone and still be a Good and righteous person.
Have I yet made it clear that this is ridiculous and wrong?
Perhaps this will help,
NEWSFLASH!
Bombing of Hirshoima and Nagasaki were Evil!
Destruction of cities by aerial bombing violated treaties and constituted a
War Crime!
The slaughter of millions of Americans by the United States Government was
genocidal and Evil!
The internment of citizens of japanese descent in the United States during
WWII was Evil!
I don't give a flip who rights the freaking history, Evil is still Evil.
Writing such lies is someone else's crime. Believing them would be mine.

Samwise

[Trizt]

BenandAmy (xanadu@pdq.net) wrote:

- ->> Yes they do do evil things but for a 'good' cause. After all, the
humans
- -> devastated
- ->> several large tracts of woodlands, tore up the land with thier wars, and
- -> betrayed the
- ->> elves after thier assistance in the anti-goblinoid wars. So then
humanity
- -> as a whole is
- ->> evil, right? But who defines good and evil? There are such things as
just
- -> and unjust
- ->> causes but even they can depend on PoV (Point of View).
- -> Through the last few discussions here, I have come to the conclusion
- -> that I'll keep alignment and politics apart. I think the elves could very
- -> well have a good alignment and view their acts as "righteous
- -> judgement"--much the same way as a paladin of Haelyn might feel about
- -> exterminating a gnoll war camp.

One solution about the alignment could be to divide it into subgroups as eg.
"they-alignment", "we-alignment" and "I-alignment". So the "elves" could be
they-alignment: NE, we-alignment: LG. But as every change to rules does this
demand alot of chnges on other stuff as Magical items/spells which changes
alignemnts (which alignment will they affect and how).

//Trizt of Ward^RITE

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