Fighter Regents

[Jim Cooper]

Daniel McSorley wrote:
> All the above is just from my experience, disagree if you like, I'd love to hear it.> To knock down a wizard, just rule up your provinces when you get a chance, he'll lose power at the same time as you gain it, net effect he loses _fast_.fighter regent). It always seems to be
lightning bolt. Course, they are outlaws after that, but heck,
they don't care - they seem to prefer hermit wizards anyway ...

OR, convince the regent that its in their best interest to keep the
sources strong, so wizard can use magic in defense of the land. That's
a pretty powerful arguement - which fighter regent *wouldn't* want magic
on their side of the battle. However, what can the fighter regent give
comparable in return? "Uh, I promise to be really nice to you ...?" :)

> 1 Use law holdings to collect all the GB you can.

This amounts to about 1 or MAYBE 2GBs of the taxed regents collection,
per holding. When one makes 3-4GBs a turn, that isn't such a big loss.
Frequent use of the table proved that to me.

> 2 Play guilds against each other, and temples too, so you have a clear
> majority of law in each province, and can collect more money.

One word: alliance (between the guilds or temples - or both! And when
two people get together who make more money than you do *individually*,
there is big trouble for said regent). Again, experience DMing my BR
campaigns.

> 3 Don't allow temples or guilds to have troops. Strongly discourage
> fortifications.<

One phrase: Who doesn't have enemies? Prov. ruler's got to have made
some enemies - guess who the guilders/priests go to first?

> 4 Take 50% of every trade route. If they don't like it and won't pay, shut it down with a decree (another reason to have higher law holdings than their guild holdings, see page 60 of the Rulebook).<

Works for as long as said regent finds out who the ruler's enemies are,
and then guess who doesn't get money anymore - and finds an army
marching towards their capital. Granted, I've used the excuse that no
feudal lord in their right mind would allow such a thing, even to hurt
enemies, but they then just go hire mercenaries ...

> 5 Fortify everything. Castles are the best investment you can make, it's automatic defense in depth. Even if you have no troops stationed in a province, they can't just raze your holdings, they have to neutralize it first and wear it down. other, but mysteriously only raze XYZ Guilds in the lands you occupy.
> Bluster, rattle sabres, and withdraw, apologize mutually six months later. The guilds will never know what hit them (same goes for temples).

[Morg]

Simon Graindorge wrote:

> >Simon Graindorge wrote:
> >
> >> * Firstly, what is your take on the above? do you agree with me that
> >> fighters seem at a disadvantage, or not?

I agree. Rogues have the best deal all around (IMO) Regency & Cash from guilds,
half rps from law. Free epionage move. They can't loose!



> However, my take on fighters is that everything they do, someone else seems
> to be able to do better (or at least just as well - OK, I'm over-reacting
> here, but I'm sure you all understand what I mean). I mean this both from a
> personal (ie. character abilities) and regency (rulership abilities &
> potential) point-of-view.

I agree here too. However, I think the fighter could really shine if a Dm allows
for certain 'game possibilities' or 'role playing' effects.

For example:
Thieves, Priest, etc might be able to afford to raise an army, but whose going to
lead it? A fighter regent who commands his armies should be the only one to get
certain bonuses. Morale, movement, combat bonuses maybe? While the other
character classes are laughing while they sign off the payroll cheques for their
huge, but immobile army, the fighter walks up and bats them all about the head.

Here's some more thoughts that aren't very well thought out:

- - fighters get initiative bonus when engaging in military operations.
- - fighters know HOW to use troops to the best advantage. Maybe they pay half
maintenance on troops. Could be problematic though..... maybe muster at half cost?

- -fighters are more easily able to 'upgrade' their troops. IIRC, this was a Source
Book action.

If a Dm allows the fighter to use his 'fighter' abilities (BR is the only game that
I know of where a fighter's high level 'bonuses' ould apply.) His castle and
warfare knowledge finally has a forum in which it can be addressed. Unfortunately,
the game mechanics don't really show this point blank.

> In fact, I have always wondered why fighters need
> so much experience at high (and low levels), when they really have very few
> special talents (compared to say thieves & priests), but that's getting a
> little off-topic.
>

Just as an off-topic note, I think the high XP comes from the low level 'mega
damage' they do in relation to the other classes, and it unfortunately got carried
through the XP chart. From levels 1 - 4, fighters are the ones who are killing
everything. They do the mega 2 handed sword + strength bonus damage (compared to
the 1- 6 short sword, and the magic missle). However, once the wizard is able to
lob a fireball or two, the fighter looses his gleam.


Keith
- --
"I am your humble knight, and I swear allegiance to the courage and power in your
veins.
So strong it is, it's source must be Uther Pendragon."
The Draftmine (Home of the Brass Boar & other Oddities.)
http://www.angelfire.com/ak/draftmine/
Brenna's Blood Secret PbeM (A Haven's of the Great Bay PBeM.)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dungeon/2239/index.htm

[Pieter A de Jong]

Simon Graindorge wrote:
>
> >Simon Graindorge wrote:
> >
> >> * Firstly, what is your take on the above? do you agree with me that
> >> fighters seem at a disadvantage, or not?
> >
> >I think the guys who really are at a disadvantage are wizards. Their sources
> >generate no money and their realm spells cannot be cast without money. They
> >either have to ally themselves with some other regent, or they have to spend a
> >month earning enough money to spend another month casting an Alchemy spell to
> >earn enough money so that they can even perform domain actions or cast other
> >realm spells. Alchemy burns RPs like crazy, so a mage without an ally ends up
> >short of both regency and money, which seems like a pretty lousy situation to
> >me.
>
> I agree with this, and the only mage regent that has ever been even mildly
> successful in my campaigns was also a province ruler, so they gained money
> through taxation.
>
> But...my argument against this would be that mages have access to (wizardly)
> magic - no-one else can even *think* about using realm (let alone "normal")
> magic.

Yeah, and the problem with this is that mages generally cannot afford to
use thier realm spells without a separate source of income. The second
problem is that ruling provinces is usually not enough for a secondary
source of income for a mage. Why? a) because, as many people have
suggested, simply ruling a province does not provide large amounts of
free cash when compared to the amount of money spent maintaning and
controlling that province (ie. armies, castles, etc.) and b) because
mages cannot rule their provinces with any efficiency while keeping
their source holdings intact (unless they are elves). This gives other
regents a definite edge over wizards in that their class-specific
holdings (law,temple,guild) all increase with larger province sizes
(what the province ruler wants), while sources are decreased.

- --

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Daniel McSorley]

From: Simon Graindorge
>I agree with everything you have said above, but all of these
>"powers/abilities" are not unique to fighters. Pretty much *any* character
>class can use them - all they have to do is become the ruler. Now, granted
>that fighters do tend to be more Let's face it, from a purely game
mechanics
>(ie. numbers) perspective, other classes make much better domain rulers
>(collect more RP, GB, etc).
>
>What I was really getting at is that the fighter seems to have nothing that
>says "I am a fighter, and taking me on in this area is going to go badly
for
>you". For example, a wizard has magic, a priest has higher powers, thieves
>have a network of informants and other such things, rangers have woodland
>friends, paladins have supreme military powers as well as a god - fighters
>don't have anything like this, yet they still have one of the highest
>experience point tables of all the classes.
>
>The point of my post was not really that province/domain rulers (who are
>mostly fighters, I'll admit) are relatively weak, but that fighter rulers
>seem to have very few benefits.
>
>I was wondering if perhaps they should have some benefits, in battle - ie.
>if you are going to attack a neighbouring warlord's (fighter regent)
>provinces, you better think twice about it.
>
Hmm, ok, now I understand where you're going.
Well, a quick glance reveals that the Strategy and Seigecraft NWP are
both warrior proficiencies, so a higher proportion of warriors will have
them than will priests and etc, which can be an advantage.
Maybe muster should only be free for warrior regents, make it a domain
action for others.
But, I'm still not sure I agree with you. Since all fighters really
_can_ rule are lands and law, then by exclusion, those are fighter benefits,
everyone else just tries to gain them, too. A fighter competing with a
priest, each ruling equal provinces and law, will win. The problem comes
when players try to load the dice by having that priest monopolize all the
temples, too. I think this is because fighters don't diversify like a
landed guilder or priest does, getting into other holdings. If the fighter
used his landed lord advantage, he could control the guilds in his country
easily, and own them himself. He might not get RP for them, but he'd get
the gold. Or, he could declare one guild or temple the state one, and get
gold from them in return. It's diversification that wins, and fighters can
do that like anyone else. I don't really see a problem here, maybe it's
just my perspective.

Daniel McSorley- mcsorley.1@osu.edu

[Jim Cooper]

J. D. Lail wrote:
> BTW Do all of you deduct the law claims from the income of the Guild
> and/or Temple being claimed against ? Also does this come before RP's
> are taken ?

Yes, and no.

Cheers,
Darren

[The Olesens]

Morg wrote:

> Simon Graindorge wrote:
>
> > >Simon Graindorge wrote:
> > >
> > >> * Firstly, what is your take on the above? do you agree with me that
> > >> fighters seem at a disadvantage, or not?
>
> I agree. Rogues have the best deal all around (IMO) Regency & Cash from guilds,
> half rps from law. Free epionage move. They can't loose!

I agree. Priests are well off too, with RP from temples, realm spells, and 1/2 law RP.
Not to mention thier free agitate action. Poor warriors. Well in response I have created
some special benefits for warriors.

All warriors: how about a reduced muster cost? Maybe a GB or so cheaper. Or maybe he
could take a character action to 1/2 or really reduce the cost of troops by personally
looking for soldier and training them. Perhaps both.

Fighters should get an improved version of what all warriors get.

Rangers have a special place in my heart and I made them thier own domain action. But
they can take it as a free action one per DT. It is a form of espionage that is based on
how un-populated a province is and can only locate troops or any other
scout-rangery-wilderness type thing. I'll put it up for the Netbook soon.

Paladin, IMC, get a free agitate action like priests. The diffrence is that they may only
use it to raise loyalty in non-rebellious provinces.

This doesn't balance it out totally but it is a weight on the right side of the scale.

- -Andrew

[Jim Cooper]

Daniel McSorley wrote:
> Maybe muster should only be free for warrior regents, make it a domain action for others. But, I'm still not sure I agree with you. Since all fighters really _can_ rule are lands and law, then by exclusion, those are fighter benefits, everyone else just tries to gain them, too. A fighter competing with a
> priest, each ruling equal provinces and law, will win. The problem comes when players try to load the dice by having that priest monopolize all the temples, too. landed guilder or priest does, getting into other holdings. If the fighter used his landed lord advantage, he could control the guilds in his country easily, and own them himself.

Actually, this is the problem - even if fighter regents _do_ diversify,
they still receive little benefit, as opposed to other classes who will
receive the benefit (like 1/2 RPs from law, or in the case of
rangers/paladins, full regency from a second holding type!)

> He might not get RP for them, but he'd get the gold. Or, he could declare one guild or temple the state one, and get gold from them in return. It's diversification that wins, and fighters can> do that like anyone else. I don't really see a problem here, maybe it's
just my perspective.

[David Sean Brown]

> Good point. Until you remember that these cost money - and isn't this
> what those fighter regents have trouble getting in the first place.
> Hence, my post on reorganizing the economy. My players say: "why
> should I give him money to build a castle for my protection? Let ME
> build it to protect myself and leave my money alone!"

Why should fighter regents have any trouble making money? They generally
being landed regents have the easiest time of all. Create a number of
guild holdings (even lvl 0, although higher lvl ones generate $$ on their
own) and create a pile of trade routes. You don't get the RP's , but the
money is all yours..and as a bonus, as the regent ownuing the lands, no
one can cut your routes by decree!!

Sean

[Jim Cooper]

The Olesens wrote:
> Fighters should get an improved version of what all warriors get.

And what is that?

[Jim Cooper]

David Sean Brown wrote:
> Why should fighter regents have any trouble making money? They generally being landed regents have the easiest time of all. Create a number of guild holdings (even lvl 0, although higher lvl ones generate $$ on their own) and create a pile of trade routes. You don't get the RP's , but the money is all yours..and as a bonus, as the regent ownuing the lands, no one can cut your routes by decree!!