Question... [Archive] - Birthright.net

Peter Lubke

09-21-2002, 03:09 PM

On Sat, 2002-09-21 at 14:22, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

http://home.mchsi.com/~kgauck/taelshore/cleric.htm

Mt brief write ups (PHB style) is found at this address, including domains.

My own 3e write-ups of the various priest classes are here:
http://home.mchsi.com/~kgauck/taelshore/divine.htm

I`ve written a Dieties and Demigods version of Haelyn, but its not up
anywhere, but I could forward it.

I rather think half-elves could be in any congregation, but Ruornil
probabaly holds a particular attraction. Magic and mystic places.

What`s a half-elf?

Seriously. What`s a half-elf? a half-human? exactly 50-50? A race of its
own? Genetics aside (it is a fantasy world so lets accept with a leap of
faith that a conjoining can bear fruit), if a child was brought up
entirely as an elf, eating elf food, learning elf customs, sharing the
elf lifestyle, being treated as an elf (and this is exactly what
Cerilian elves do for products of such a union) - how would it be
different from an elf?

I cant see that they should be accepted as a RACE apart. Nor is there
reason to accept them as individuals that are balanced between two
cultures. Sure, from a role-playing perspective, - but from a mechanical
one? It`s a very long bow to draw to.

At a less extreme end of the viewpoint, what is the union of a Brecht
and Khinasi pairing? Surely, the child will favor one or the other
parent. Surely, their upbringing will determine their culture far more
than their genetics. Even a full-blooded Khinasi brought up in an
entirely Brecht culture will be Brecht in outlook for example.

Just a thought.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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kgauck

09-21-2002, 04:02 PM

Brecht and Khinasi are purely cultural designations. Elf and human are not,
although there is a strong cultural componant. Elfiness is not just a
cultural designation it implies awareness of things like the four elements
and call of the wild. Even an elf with only a single sidhe granparent may
still have sensory awareness which humans totaly lack. Then there is the
question of existential time. What is the passage of time to an elf?
Humans seem to have a much greater awareness of their mortality and the
short time they have to act. Half elves will have an extended sense of
their own lives, and so feel less hurried, less time-sensitive than humans,
but more so then elves, who may in fact lack a time sensitivity. Cultural
affiliation will strengthen one of these tendencies towards time, but there
is an inborn sense of time connected to one`s own aging. So, I`ve mentioned
two kinds of sense. A nature sense that elves have and humans lack and a
time sense that humans have and elves lack. This has not exhausted the
essential differences between elves and humans. Since the differences
between elves and humans is not purely cultural (unlike Brecht and Khinasi)
it is possible that people might favore a template for those of mixed human
and sidhe decent. Others may favor a template for other mixtures of
ancestory, too.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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Peter Lubke

09-21-2002, 04:17 PM

On Sun, 2002-09-22 at 01:33, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

Brecht and Khinasi are purely cultural designations. Elf and human are not,
although there is a strong cultural componant. Elfiness is not just a
cultural designation it implies awareness of things like the four elements
and call of the wild. Even an elf with only a single sidhe granparent may
still have sensory awareness which humans totaly lack.

claiming racial memory? (cf cultural learned response)

Then there is the
question of existential time. What is the passage of time to an elf?
Humans seem to have a much greater awareness of their mortality and the
short time they have to act. Half elves will have an extended sense of
their own lives, and so feel less hurried, less time-sensitive than humans,
but more so then elves, who may in fact lack a time sensitivity.

but there is no half-elf racial memory - it`s elf and/or human. (and a
learned response is wholly elf or wholly human depending on environment)

Cultural
affiliation will strengthen one of these tendencies towards time, but there
is an inborn sense of time connected to one`s own aging. So, I`ve mentioned
two kinds of sense. A nature sense that elves have and humans lack and a
time sense that humans have and elves lack. This has not exhausted the
essential differences between elves and humans. Since the differences
between elves and humans is not purely cultural (unlike Brecht and Khinasi)
it is possible that people might favore a template for those of mixed human
and sidhe decent. Others may favor a template for other mixtures of
ancestory, too.

not very convincing at all. I`ll accept that there are differences
between humans and elves. If a mixed heritage `recalls` a sense - it
would be a total recall - not a partial one.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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Birthright-L

09-21-2002, 05:44 PM

I rather think half-elves could be in any congregation, but Ruornil
probabaly holds a particular attraction. Magic and mystic places.
------------

Hmmm... Well, I also think that half-elves might do well as priests (druids)
of Erik. Avani, being Lady of Reason is not going to turn them down for just
being of Elven blood. Laerme, being the goddess of beauty might appeal to
some of them.

And, of course, those half-elves that have been raised primarily in human
societies might end up in any of the others... Though the downtrodden might
gravitate towards Eloéle... And those who grow up surrounded by the battles
for the Iron Throne (or other battle-heavy places) might end up as clerics
of Cuiraécen... (Which BTW is the deity that half-elf priestess is that I
need to convert... Though to her, he`s Kirken.)

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Trithemius

09-21-2002, 06:29 PM

Peter L:
> What`s a half-elf?
>
> Seriously. What`s a half-elf? a half-human? exactly 50-50? A
> race of its own? Genetics aside (it is a fantasy world so
> lets accept with a leap of faith that a conjoining can bear
> fruit), if a child was brought up entirely as an elf, eating
> elf food, learning elf customs, sharing the elf lifestyle,
> being treated as an elf (and this is exactly what Cerilian
> elves do for products of such a union) - how would it be
> different from an elf?
>
> I cant see that they should be accepted as a RACE apart. Nor
> is there reason to accept them as individuals that are
> balanced between two cultures. Sure, from a role-playing
> perspective, - but from a mechanical one? It`s a very long
> bow to draw to.
>
> At a less extreme end of the viewpoint, what is the union of
> a Brecht and Khinasi pairing? Surely, the child will favor
> one or the other parent. Surely, their upbringing will
> determine their culture far more than their genetics. Even a
> full-blooded Khinasi brought up in an entirely Brecht culture
> will be Brecht in outlook for example.
>
> Just a thought.

I`m actually similarly torn. I have been thinking about the Ritters, a
family of minor lords in Roesone (the stewards of Edlin or Duerlin
IIRC), who are descended from a Brecht companion of Daen Roesone. Given
that it is unlikely that the original Ritter brought his family with him
this family is certainly going to have been originally half-Brecht and
half-Anuirean. Are these people Brechts, or are they Anuireans who have
a habit of having lighter coloured hair and eyes and of teaching their
children Brecht? I would consider the Ritters to be the second and make
no distinction for "half-regional" humans.

Sidhelien however are different. They are magical eldritch creatures,
not just people with some different customs. I am actually inclined to
go a little "Tolkien" on this matter. Essentially the half-sidhe has a
choice - to either stay in the sidhe-forests and live as a sidhe
(although as a "weaker" sidhe) or to leave and travel, perhaps to join
some human society. This choice need not the conscious choice of the
half-elves of Tolkien`s world, the choice can be unconscious, although
probably not involuntary. Those who choose the sidhe-forest might tend
to live longer and develop more curious magical powers, whereas the ones
who leave become the typical "adventuring" half-elf who lives on the
fringes and has to deal with a lack of acceptance. This second group may
live for shorter periods of time and develop more worldly skills.
Finally, and probably only very rarely, there are half-sidhe who leave
the sidhe-forests and become accepted by human society.

I would say that those half-sidhe living in the sidhe-forests would be
able to develop nearly all the skills, feats, and prestige classes (if
used) available to sidhelien of that area. Those that leave are more
likely to be considered as human adventurers of that particular region,
although there is certainly scope for the development of some magical
techniques or feat-based abilities that are normally the province of
true sidhelien.

I feel that most PC half-sidhe will be of the second variety. The first
group would tend ot be happy and "well-adjusted" (for sidhelien) and
therefore not be prone to adventuring beyond their own homes (I always
imagined sidhe-forests and rather interesting places). The second group
is virtually forced into a life of "adventuring" (i.e. wandering around
shiftless and homeless searching for things to do to survive and fend
off boredom).

I don`t personally think much of the argument about genetics. I consider
the taint of sidhe ancestry to be a curious magical thing and not a
matter of biology. I`m all for science in its place, I`m not convinced
that sidhelien-human breeding in BR needs to be examined genetically. I
also am unsure of the point in determining absolute psychological
patterns in a fictional race. I suppose it could by useful to some
people (I mean, obviously it is to Peter) but "my mileage varies" on
this regard.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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Trithemius

09-21-2002, 06:29 PM

William:
> Hmmm... Well, I also think that half-elves might do well as
> priests (druids) of Erik. Avani, being Lady of Reason is not
> going to turn them down for just being of Elven blood.
> Laerme, being the goddess of beauty might appeal to some of them.

Unless those Avanites are from Zikala ;)

> And, of course, those half-elves that have been raised
> primarily in human societies might end up in any of the
> others... Though the downtrodden might gravitate towards
> Eloéle... And those who grow up surrounded by the battles for
> the Iron Throne (or other battle-heavy places) might end up
> as clerics of Cuiraécen... (Which BTW is the deity that
> half-elf priestess is that I need to convert... Though to
> her, he`s Kirken.)

I think that some half-sidhe might have Cuiraecen as a patron because
they are bards (which is a traditional class for half-elves to take up).
I see bards as fulfilling a lot of the roles of heralds and so, since
Cuiraecen is the patron of heralds (being one himself), wandering bards
might place themselves under the patronage (and protection) of the
Stormlord.

I personally like the idea of a Haelynite half-sidhe who has *really*
turned his back on his ancestry. Perhaps this character reviles their
sidhe parent for not marrying and staying with their mortal parent?
Maybe it was the characters feelings of injustice over this that made
them seek the priesthood of the Lawmaker? Alternatively perhaps I just
like the idea of heavily-armoured half-sidhe since it is different from
the norm...

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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kgauck

09-21-2002, 06:29 PM

Racial memory? I`m talking about sense perception.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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geeman

09-21-2002, 07:10 PM

At 12:39 AM 9/22/2002 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

>What`s a half-elf? a half-human? exactly 50-50? A race of its own?
>Genetics aside (it is a fantasy world so lets accept with a leap of faith
>that a conjoining can bear fruit), if a child was brought up entirely as
>an elf, eating elf food, learning elf customs, sharing the elf lifestyle,
>being treated as an elf (and this is exactly what Cerilian elves do for
>products of such a union) - how would it be different from an elf?
[SNIP]
>At a less extreme end of the viewpoint, what is the union of a Brecht and
>Khinasi pairing?

I think there`s two different issues here. For simplicity I`ll call them
"race" and "culture" even though those terms aren`t very accurate. In 3e
race (dwarf, elf, goblin, human) is reflected as a template, while the best
option for culture is a list of optional background feats. The standard at
present is that race takes precedence over culture and determines what are,
in effect, background feats for a character, but really all races should
have a few background feats to choose from not just humans. The logic
would seem to be that because demi-human and humanoid races exist in such
smaller numbers than humans (which usually the case in any fantasy setting)
their culture can be assumed to be part of their racial make-up. There`s
usually a few racial characteristics for 3e racial templates that are
similar to background feats.

Should a human raised in elven/dwarven/halfling society have a different
set of background feats to choose from? Absolutely. Those feats should be
different from things that are at the racial "template" level, though. It
wouldn`t be terribly difficult to pick out a few of the racial
characteristics of elves and turn them into background feats for a human
raised by them. Longsword and bow proficiency, for instance, could be a
racial feat. Bonuses to Listen, Search and Spot checks might as well. (I
combine Listen and Spot into one skill, personally, so a +2 on two
different skills works nicely.) Recent threads have suggested the use of
feats to gain additional favored classes, so that could be a background
feat too. Things like actual ability score bonuses/penalties, immunity to
certain spells and, of course, immortality would be best as part of the
racial template.

As for a Brecht-Khinasi (or any other cross) character, I think they should
have access to whatever background feats they predominately were raised in,
since those kinds of things are the product of nurture not nature. If a
player decided that he wanted his PC to have a background in both
cultures--his parents got joint custody or something ;)--then I`d roll his
choice of optional background feats randomly from a list for each.

As for exactly what comprises a half-elf in 3e, I can`t cite chapter and
page number on this off the top of my head, but I recall some pre-3e source
suggesting that anything between 50% and 99% elven was considered
half-elf. An elf has to be 100% elven. More than 50% human blood makes
someone a human. Personally, I think this is a kind of goofy way to go,
and would prefer something more along the lines that anyone whose heritage
is 25% to 75% elven is a half-elf, and anything over 75% heritage makes
them an elf or human. In another campaign I had "elf-touched humans," 1/4,
1/2, 3/4 and "human-touched elves" with different stats for each but that
was a whole other deal and "half-elves" in that campaign were pretty close
to standard 3e elves.

Gary

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Birthright-L

09-21-2002, 07:10 PM

As for exactly what comprises a half-elf in 3e, I can`t cite chapter and
page number on this off the top of my head, but I recall some pre-3e source
suggesting that anything between 50% and 99% elven was considered
half-elf. An elf has to be 100% elven. More than 50% human blood makes
someone a human. Personally, I think this is a kind of goofy way to go,
and would prefer something more along the lines that anyone whose heritage
is 25% to 75% elven is a half-elf, and anything over 75% heritage makes
them an elf or human. In another campaign I had "elf-touched humans," 1/4,
1/2, 3/4 and "human-touched elves" with different stats for each but that
was a whole other deal and "half-elves" in that campaign were pretty close
to standard 3e elves.
-------

Yes, the genetics you cited above are the way I remember half-elves being
descriped to me (in 2E)... Your suggestion also has much merit... Of course,
the other option is to use the method used in the DL Chronicles as such...
If I remember correctly, Tanis and Larantha (may have the name a BIT wrong)
had a son, who was 3/4 elf and had features that evidenced it... as well as
(supposedly) a longer life than a half-elf, but shorter than a full elf
(though with the innumerable wars that happen on Krynn, I doubt ANY
character is going to go to his grave, warm and safe in bed)...

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Peter Lubke

09-22-2002, 03:02 AM

On Sun, 2002-09-22 at 03:54, John Machin wrote:

Peter L:
> What`s a half-elf?
>
> Seriously. What`s a half-elf? a half-human? exactly 50-50? A
> race of its own? Genetics aside (it is a fantasy world so
> lets accept with a leap of faith that a conjoining can bear
> fruit), if a child was brought up entirely as an elf, eating
> elf food, learning elf customs, sharing the elf lifestyle,
> being treated as an elf (and this is exactly what Cerilian
> elves do for products of such a union) - how would it be
> different from an elf?
>
> I cant see that they should be accepted as a RACE apart. Nor
> is there reason to accept them as individuals that are
> balanced between two cultures. Sure, from a role-playing
> perspective, - but from a mechanical one? It`s a very long
> bow to draw to.
>
> At a less extreme end of the viewpoint, what is the union of
> a Brecht and Khinasi pairing? Surely, the child will favor
> one or the other parent. Surely, their upbringing will
> determine their culture far more than their genetics. Even a
> full-blooded Khinasi brought up in an entirely Brecht culture
> will be Brecht in outlook for example.
>
> Just a thought.

I`m actually similarly torn. I have been thinking about the Ritters, a
family of minor lords in Roesone (the stewards of Edlin or Duerlin
IIRC), who are descended from a Brecht companion of Daen Roesone. Given
that it is unlikely that the original Ritter brought his family with him
this family is certainly going to have been originally half-Brecht and
half-Anuirean. Are these people Brechts, or are they Anuireans who have
a habit of having lighter coloured hair and eyes and of teaching their
children Brecht? I would consider the Ritters to be the second and make
no distinction for "half-regional" humans.

Sidhelien however are different. They are magical eldritch creatures,
not just people with some different customs. I am actually inclined to
go a little "Tolkien" on this matter. Essentially the half-sidhe has a
choice - to either stay in the sidhe-forests and live as a sidhe
(although as a "weaker" sidhe) or to leave and travel, perhaps to join
some human society. This choice need not the conscious choice of the
half-elves of Tolkien`s world, the choice can be unconscious, although
probably not involuntary. Those who choose the sidhe-forest might tend
to live longer and develop more curious magical powers, whereas the ones
who leave become the typical "adventuring" half-elf who lives on the
fringes and has to deal with a lack of acceptance. This second group may
live for shorter periods of time and develop more worldly skills.
Finally, and probably only very rarely, there are half-sidhe who leave
the sidhe-forests and become accepted by human society.

I tend to agree - a half-breed of any kind really will have a more
dominant side, for elves it may be a matter of choice -- not
necessarilly a conscious one however.

Perhaps not so much as leave the forest - as never have been introduced
to the Sidhe way of life in the first place - although I think this case
in Cerilia would be rare, even for a half-human. (tee hee just having
fun with the half-full half-empty metaphor)

I would say that those half-sidhe living in the sidhe-forests would be
able to develop nearly all the skills, feats, and prestige classes (if
used) available to sidhelien of that area. Those that leave are more
likely to be considered as human adventurers of that particular region,
although there is certainly scope for the development of some magical
techniques or feat-based abilities that are normally the province of
true sidhelien.

I feel that most PC half-sidhe will be of the second variety. The first
group would tend ot be happy and "well-adjusted" (for sidhelien) and
therefore not be prone to adventuring beyond their own homes (I always
imagined sidhe-forests and rather interesting places). The second group
is virtually forced into a life of "adventuring" (i.e. wandering around
shiftless and homeless searching for things to do to survive and fend
off boredom).

I don`t personally think much of the argument about genetics. I consider
the taint of sidhe ancestry to be a curious magical thing and not a
matter of biology. I`m all for science in its place, I`m not convinced
that sidhelien-human breeding in BR needs to be examined genetically. I
also am unsure of the point in determining absolute psychological
patterns in a fictional race. I suppose it could by useful to some
people (I mean, obviously it is to Peter) but "my mileage varies" on
this regard.

I`m inclined to agree here - we can suspend disbelief in the `reality`
of genetics. The psychological makeup goes a long way to establishing
motivation and activity - a sort of ecology project.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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Peter Lubke

09-22-2002, 03:02 AM

On Sun, 2002-09-22 at 04:43, Gary wrote:

At 12:39 AM 9/22/2002 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

>What`s a half-elf? a half-human? exactly 50-50? A race of its own?
>Genetics aside (it is a fantasy world so lets accept with a leap of faith
>that a conjoining can bear fruit), if a child was brought up entirely as
>an elf, eating elf food, learning elf customs, sharing the elf lifestyle,
>being treated as an elf (and this is exactly what Cerilian elves do for
>products of such a union) - how would it be different from an elf?
[SNIP]
>At a less extreme end of the viewpoint, what is the union of a Brecht and
>Khinasi pairing?

I think there`s two different issues here. For simplicity I`ll call them
"race" and "culture" even though those terms aren`t very accurate. In 3e
race (dwarf, elf, goblin, human) is reflected as a template, while the best
option for culture is a list of optional background feats. The standard at
present is that race takes precedence over culture and determines what are,
in effect, background feats for a character, but really all races should
have a few background feats to choose from not just humans. The logic
would seem to be that because demi-human and humanoid races exist in such
smaller numbers than humans (which usually the case in any fantasy setting)
their culture can be assumed to be part of their racial make-up. There`s
usually a few racial characteristics for 3e racial templates that are
similar to background feats.

Race and culture is a good discriminant. I`ll accept that as good and
adding value. What you are saying is that Brecht and Anuirean are
culture variants on a race - even to the point of having Brecht
halflings so to speak? ... yeah it`s a good idea - I rather like it (for
now).

.... but it doesn`t speak to the issue of whether a half-elf should be a
separate race (or even a separate culture) - except to support my
quasi-meandering musing that a half-breed elf brought up in human
society would behave as a human and vice versa (the latter being far
more probable in Cerilia).

Certainly you could have an elf (race) growing up within a human culture
(say Masetian - on the Isle of the Serpent). Of course this is a
full-elf in this example -- without any contact with his own race - how
much of his racial characteristics would you expect the full elf to
display?

Now I wouldn`t expect complete integration - but perhaps not complete
elf abilities either - at least not learned ones. So now substitute a
half-elf into the same situation, quarter elf etc and how far should we
go? Gary`s mechanics say officially 50%, but unofficially he supports
less. I must admit I`m tempted to go with `if either of your parents
were regarded as elves then you also may be regarded as an elf`. Ditto
for human cultures or whatever, but essentially a creature is seen as
one race or the other (mechanically). Although, from a role-playing
perspective of course such a position is relative, that is, other
characters may interpret their `true race` differently. I must admit
that Cerilian elves are fairly easy, being that all half-elves are
treated as full elves in elven society and as elves in human society as
well.

Should a human raised in elven/dwarven/halfling society have a different
set of background feats to choose from? Absolutely. Those feats should be
different from things that are at the racial "template" level, though. It
wouldn`t be terribly difficult to pick out a few of the racial
characteristics of elves and turn them into background feats for a human
raised by them. Longsword and bow proficiency, for instance, could be a
racial feat. Bonuses to Listen, Search and Spot checks might as well. (I
combine Listen and Spot into one skill, personally, so a +2 on two
different skills works nicely.) Recent threads have suggested the use of
feats to gain additional favored classes, so that could be a background
feat too. Things like actual ability score bonuses/penalties, immunity to
certain spells and, of course, immortality would be best as part of the
racial template.

As for a Brecht-Khinasi (or any other cross) character, I think they should
have access to whatever background feats they predominately were raised in,
since those kinds of things are the product of nurture not nature. If a
player decided that he wanted his PC to have a background in both
cultures--his parents got joint custody or something ;)--then I`d roll his
choice of optional background feats randomly from a list for each.

As for exactly what comprises a half-elf in 3e, I can`t cite chapter and
page number on this off the top of my head, but I recall some pre-3e source
suggesting that anything between 50% and 99% elven was considered
half-elf. An elf has to be 100% elven. More than 50% human blood makes
someone a human. Personally, I think this is a kind of goofy way to go,
and would prefer something more along the lines that anyone whose heritage
is 25% to 75% elven is a half-elf, and anything over 75% heritage makes
them an elf or human. In another campaign I had "elf-touched humans," 1/4,
1/2, 3/4 and "human-touched elves" with different stats for each but that
was a whole other deal and "half-elves" in that campaign were pretty close
to standard 3e elves.

While part of my discourse focused on the `what is`, I also raised the
question of them being entitled to a separate race. It`s interesting
that in all the discussion so generated there`s been no real support for
a separate race for half-XXX as a RACE apart.

Mechanics aside for a moment, because mechanics should only be
introduced to solve a particular problem - not used to explain
themselves (an apriori is proof of nothing). The question is not `how`
should we do it, but one of `why` should we do it?

Gary

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geeman

09-22-2002, 04:29 AM

At 12:15 PM 9/22/2002 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

>.... but it doesn`t speak to the issue of whether a half-elf should be a
>separate race (or even a separate culture) - except to support my
>quasi-meandering musing that a half-breed elf brought up in human
>society would behave as a human and vice versa (the latter being far
>more probable in Cerilia).

I didn`t describe half-elves in particular, but I think you could use the
same "race" and "culture" concepts. Half-elves would remain a separate
"race" because they have some of the features of elves that would not
necessarily fall under culture; immunity to sleep and charm, +2 racial
bonus to saves vs. enchantment, being considered elven for the purpose of
elven magical items, low-light vision and (arguably) their +1 bonus to
Listen, Search and Spot are all race (template) issues. Half-elves (and
all characters IMO, but half-elves in particular) should get some sort of
background feat in addition to that. That feat could be based on either
the human or elven culture they grew up in.

>Certainly you could have an elf (race) growing up within a human culture
>(say Masetian - on the Isle of the Serpent). Of course this is a
>full-elf in this example -- without any contact with his own race - how
>much of his racial characteristics would you expect the full elf to
>display?

For such a character the elven racial characteristic that I`d get rid of
would be their automatic longsword or rapier/bow proficiency, and in place
of that I`d give them an additional feat (just like the human extra feat)
that they could spend on a background feat based on the human culture they
were raised in.

>Now I wouldn`t expect complete integration - but perhaps not complete elf
>abilities either - at least not learned ones. So now substitute a half-elf
>into the same situation, quarter elf etc and how far should we go? Gary`s
>mechanics say officially 50%, but unofficially he supports less.

If I change my last name to Gygax can we make it an official change?

Half-elves get a little short changed IMO. They get some slightly toned
down elven abilities, but the only human trait they get is favored class:
any. Give them an additional feat at 1st level and let them pick it from
either a list of background feats available to humans of the culture in
which they are reared, or a list made up of the background feat-like racial
characteristics of elves; their longsword/bow proficiency, an additional
favored class (wizard), or an additional +1 to their Listen, Search, Spot
checks.

>While part of my discourse focused on the `what is`, I also raised the
>question of them being entitled to a separate race. It`s interesting that
>in all the discussion so generated there`s been no real support for a
>separate race for half-XXX as a RACE apart.
>
>Mechanics aside for a moment, because mechanics should only be introduced
>to solve a particular problem - not used to explain themselves (an apriori
>is proof of nothing). The question is not `how` should we do it, but one
>of `why` should we do it?

Maybe I`m not understanding what you mean by a race apart. Is there some
aspect of it other than the template of racial characteristics you`re
trying to get at?

The only reason I can come up with for having half-XXX character use a
different racial template would be so that you could take some of the
traits from each of their parents` templates and combine them into a third
template. Half-elves might not be the clearest example since humans and
elves are relatively close, but if we look at a more extreme example like
half-ogres it seems logical that they should have a template that is
somewhere between the ogre and the human templates to reflect their mixed
parentage. If an ogre template is +8 to strength and +4 to constitution, a
half-ogre could be +4 and +2. It puts the "half" into the half-ogre....

Gary

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kgauck

09-22-2002, 04:29 AM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Lubke" <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 9:15 PM

> .... but it doesn`t speak to the issue of whether a half-elf should be a
> separate race (or even a separate culture) - except to support my
> quasi-meandering musing that a half-breed elf brought up in human
> society would behave as a human and vice versa (the latter being far
> more probable in Cerilia).

Its neither a seperate race or a seperate culture. It is a template
designed to combine two races. Culture is not the only question at work
here. A half-elf raised in human society may favor their human side, but
they still have elven perceptive qualities. Therefore they don`t experience
human culture the same way as humans do, even though the objective culture
may be the same for both. Certain perceptions of the sidhe blood are
keener, hence the +2 save bonus vs enchantments. There is the low light
vision. The keen sense of hearing and eyesight, leading to bonuses to the
relevant Listen, Spot, and Search checks. The physical connection to the
sidhe nature allowing use of magical items designed for elves. There is the
longer life-span, leading to different perceptions of time in every occasion
in which time might be balanced against other values.

So half-elves will have different perceptions of the same objective data as
humans will.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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Peter Lubke

09-22-2002, 03:15 PM

On Sun, 2002-09-22 at 13:12, Gary wrote:

At 12:15 PM 9/22/2002 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

>.... but it doesn`t speak to the issue of whether a half-elf should be a
>separate race (or even a separate culture) - except to support my
>quasi-meandering musing that a half-breed elf brought up in human
>society would behave as a human and vice versa (the latter being far
>more probable in Cerilia).

I didn`t describe half-elves in particular, but I think you could use the
same "race" and "culture" concepts. Half-elves would remain a separate
"race" because they have some of the features of elves that would not
necessarily fall under culture; immunity to sleep and charm, +2 racial
bonus to saves vs. enchantment, being considered elven for the purpose of
elven magical items, low-light vision and (arguably) their +1 bonus to

Cart before the horse. "They must be a separate race because we have a
rule saying they are" - why can`t they be elves? -- I find this a very
poor argument, that they must be a separate race because they have
separate racial tendencies. While I can see some reason for giving them
elven characteristics - I see very little reason at all for giving them
a modified set and calling them a separate "race" and even less (ie
none) for being a separate "culture".

Listen, Search and Spot are all race (template) issues. Half-elves (and
all characters IMO, but half-elves in particular) should get some sort of
background feat in addition to that. That feat could be based on either
the human or elven culture they grew up in.

>Certainly you could have an elf (race) growing up within a human culture
>(say Masetian - on the Isle of the Serpent). Of course this is a
>full-elf in this example -- without any contact with his own race - how
>much of his racial characteristics would you expect the full elf to
>display?

For such a character the elven racial characteristic that I`d get rid of
would be their automatic longsword or rapier/bow proficiency, and in place
of that I`d give them an additional feat (just like the human extra feat)
that they could spend on a background feat based on the human culture they
were raised in.

You are focusing on mechanics of `what`. My question is `why`. Why have
(mechanics for) half-elves at all?

>Now I wouldn`t expect complete integration - but perhaps not complete elf
>abilities either - at least not learned ones. So now substitute a half-elf
>into the same situation, quarter elf etc and how far should we go? Gary`s
>mechanics say officially 50%, but unofficially he supports less.

If I change my last name to Gygax can we make it an official change?

The decision to accept all mutterings from Gygax as canon by Dragon and
the original D&D group was tainted the minute they expected a monthly
column ("From the Sorcerors Scroll"). If in ten years a majority of
players thinks it`s a good change - then we`ll make it official. ;-)
[just kiddin` ya]

But seriously - how far is too far? You say a half-elf is defined by the
template (Snort!). Bosh and nonsense. The template should define the
half-elf not the other way around. But no template for something that
doesn`t exist - what is a half-elf?

Put aside the templates, they are blinding you to the question. You
don`t need a template for something that doesn`t exist - do you have a
template for a 1/32 elf 5/32 dwarf 7/16 gnome 3/8 human? Do you NEED
such a template? But I don`t want a template - I want to hear why there
should be the concept of the half-elf, why this should get special
treatment in mechanics.

Assuming (and I do) that the union of elf and human can bring issue -
what (really) would it be? If there`s no genetic explanation (magic,
miracle, strange elven reproduction ability, whatever), then the child
is as (or more) likely to be wholly human or wholly elf as any other
result. If in fact, there is a genetic explanation (far less likely,
most especially in Cerilia), then genetics is never exactly 50-50, and
the child will always favor one parent - which coupled with upbringing
sees an almost wholly human or (far more likely) wholly elf child after
all.

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kgauck

09-22-2002, 06:50 PM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Lubke" <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 10:05 AM

> You say a half-elf is defined by the template (Snort!). Bosh
> and nonsense. The template should define the half-elf not
> the other way around.

In both the sentence you criticize and the sentence you state yourself, the
template is the subject and the half-elf is the object being defined. The
only thing you did was change the passive voice to the active voice. There
has been no change of meaning, only a change of emphisis.

half-elf is defined by template (apparently a bad thing)
template defines half-elf (apprently a good thing)

dog is washed by children (no doubt a bad thing)
children wash dog (no doubt a good thing)

Peter, why is there a mule entry in the monster manual (p.199)? After all,
you argue that the child of a mixed kind should either be like the mother or
the father. So shouldn`t we just need entries for donkey (p. 196) and horse
(p. 197)? Why this persistant notion that hybrids cannot occupy some
intermediate place between
both parents? When a sufficient sample of genetic traits is considered,
both genotype and phenotype do actually better resemble a 50-50 split than
the all or nothing split you propose.

I can understand that you don`t want to bother with a half-elf and just rule
them as one or the other. Fine. Gary apparently doesn`t distinguish
between aural and visual sensations in his campaign, so these things can be
done. But why the persistant argument that those of us who retain them are
clinging to Gygax or are just irrational? This strikes me a perfect case of
YMMV.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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geeman

09-22-2002, 08:14 PM

At 01:05 AM 9/23/2002 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

> I didn`t describe half-elves in particular, but I think you could use the
> same "race" and "culture" concepts. Half-elves would remain a separate
> "race" because they have some of the features of elves that would not
> necessarily fall under culture; immunity to sleep and charm, +2 racial
> bonus to saves vs. enchantment, being considered elven for the purpose of
> elven magical items, low-light vision and (arguably) their +1 bonus to
>
>Cart before the horse. "They must be a separate race because we have a
>rule saying they are" - why can`t they be elves? -- I find this a very
>poor argument, that they must be a separate race because they have
>separate racial tendencies.

That`s a poor argument? If they have separate racial tendencies then it
seems to follow that they must have a different racial stats reflected by a
separate template.

Anyway, as for The Rules... I don`t think that`s really influencing my
thinking much nor was that what I was suggesting. If there`s a reason to
ignore a game mechanic I`ll throw it out before you can say
"tweak." There`s no reason why you couldn`t throw out the half-elf
template and make all characters of mixed heritage either elves or humans
if that`s what you want. The differences between those two templates, in
my opinion, are enough that one could pick and choose features of each to
create a third when describing characters of mixed heritage. I don`t buy
your argument (below) that because a particular offspring will favor one
parent over the other that means the concept of a template using features
from each parent`s template should be tossed out.

>While I can see some reason for giving them elven characteristics - I see
>very little reason at all for giving them a modified set and calling them
>a separate "race" and even less (ie none) for being a separate "culture".

My reasoning is that elves and humans have demonstrably different racial
templates. If you`re going to posit a character with such mixed heritage
you could take some features of one template and some from the other to
reflect those changes, to reflect that mixed heritage. The choices would
seem to me to be:

1. Assign the template of one or the other parent to a half-elf.
2. Mix the human and elven templates.

If I understand what you`re saying, you`re not seeing a reason to go with
option #2 because a half-elf will, genetically, favor one or the other
parent. I think that`s true, though I think the concept is mis-applied to
this particular issue for two reasons. First, because "parental favoring"
isn`t what templates are designed to reflect. There`s more variation
between characters within particular templates than there is between the +0
ECL templates, so if you`re trying to reflect favoring one parent over the
other you`d probably be better off going straight to their ability scores
rather than their racial template. Second, I don`t personally agree that
racial templates are as genetically mandated as you would seem to
indicate. (More on that below.)

>>For such a character the elven racial characteristic that I`d get rid of
>>would be their automatic longsword or rapier/bow proficiency, and in
>>place of that I`d give them an additional feat (just like the human extra
>>feat) that they could spend on a background feat based on the human
>>culture they were raised in.
>
>You are focusing on mechanics of `what`. My question is `why`. Why have
>(mechanics for) half-elves at all?

I think the "what" and the "why" go hand in hand here. Why should we have
a separate template for half-elves? Because of what the templates for
elves and humans are. The template for elves has features A, B, C and
D. The template for humans has features 1, 2, 3 and 4. Therefore, a
template for a character who represents a mix of those two racial templates
can have features A, 2, B and 4.

>But seriously - how far is too far? You say a half-elf is defined by the
>template (Snort!). Bosh and nonsense. The template should define the
>half-elf not the other way around.

I don`t think that concept is snort-worthy bosh.... Off-spring often favor
one parent or another, but the assumption that the relatively minor
tendency to favor one parent rises to the level of a dominant racial
template? That doesn`t necessarily follow.

>But no template for something that doesn`t exist - what is a half-elf?
>
>Put aside the templates, they are blinding you to the question. You
>don`t need a template for something that doesn`t exist - do you have a
>template for a 1/32 elf 5/32 dwarf 7/16 gnome 3/8 human? Do you NEED
>such a template? But I don`t want a template - I want to hear why there
>should be the concept of the half-elf, why this should get special
>treatment in mechanics.

Well, you raised the issue of 1/32 elf, etc. so I think I need to
comment. No, you don`t need templates for every possible permutation of
racial heritage. If for no other reason than because there aren`t enough
stats in the templates to reflect more than just a couple of
permutations. The existence of a middle step between the human template
and the elf template, however, is reasonable. (I`ll get to the "why" below.)

>If there`s no genetic explanation (magic, miracle, strange elven
>reproduction ability, whatever), then the child is as (or more) likely to
>be wholly human or wholly elf as any other result. If in fact, there is a
>genetic explanation (far less likely, most especially in Cerilia), then
>genetics is never exactly 50-50, and the child will always favor one
>parent - which coupled with upbringing sees an almost wholly human or (far
>more likely) wholly elf child after all.

The standard in fantasy is that certain races can mix in a way that
parallels genetics. Part of that standard is that (usually) such offspring
represent a mix of their parental characteristics, but the fantasy standard
aside, I don`t think a "realistic" genetic justification for a half-elf
would favor one parent over the other to the degree that you`re
suggesting. No, genetics is never exactly 50-50 but, similarly, it is
never 100-0, and it`s a mistake to think that because genetics isn`t an
exact 50-50 split that offspring will, therefore, automatically be
identical (in the template sense) to one or the other parent. Even if the
ratio is 75/25 that does not mean one should do away with the concept of a
half-elf entirely. The racial templates are themselves very broadly
defined, and the kinds of "parental favoring" you`re talking about are
probably better described as non-stat characteristics (hair, eyes color,
shape of the ear) or by going to the actual stats/ability scores of the
parent and using them for the basis of character generation.

Using your assumption that one parent`s influence will dominate, however,
let me as you this: Which one? Do you want to make half-elves humans or
elves? Unless your thinking that there`s some sort of dominant gene
responsible for Cerilian elven immortality, their ability score changes,
racial bonus to Listen, Spot, etc. then I think you need to go with a
hybrid mix of the two templates. I suppose if you really wanted to you
could come up with a fairly simple table of racial traits from each
template and roll randomly on it to determine specific genetic traits
getting passed on. That way you could wind up with half-elves who favored
one parent over the other randomly in a similar fashion to the roulette
wheel of actual mating. I still wouldn`t go that direction myself because
I think the half-elf template is broad enough with a few general tweaks
regarding background rather than race.

Gary

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Peter Lubke

09-23-2002, 07:09 AM

On Mon, 2002-09-23 at 03:34, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Lubke" <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 10:05 AM

> You say a half-elf is defined by the template (Snort!). Bosh
> and nonsense. The template should define the half-elf not
> the other way around.

In both the sentence you criticize and the sentence you state yourself, the
template is the subject and the half-elf is the object being defined. The
only thing you did was change the passive voice to the active voice. There
has been no change of meaning, only a change of emphisis.

half-elf is defined by template (apparently a bad thing)
template defines half-elf (apprently a good thing)

Q. Why do we have a template for a half-elf? A. to define the
capabilities in game mechanics of a half-elf.
Q. Why do we have a half-elf? A. because we have a template for one.

dog is washed by children (no doubt a bad thing)
children wash dog (no doubt a good thing)

Peter, why is there a mule entry in the monster manual (p.199)? After all,
you argue that the child of a mixed kind should either be like the mother or
the father. So shouldn`t we just need entries for donkey (p. 196) and horse
(p. 197)? Why this persistant notion that hybrids cannot occupy some
intermediate place between both parents? When a sufficient sample of genetic traits is considered,
both genotype and phenotype do actually better resemble a 50-50 split than
the all or nothing split you propose.

Okay, better but still not good enough. Firstly, mule is sterile - it
does not constitute a RACE apart. I didn`t say that half-elves couldn`t
exist -- but why are they a RACE? What is a half-elf? I put it to you
that it does not constitute a race apart. There is no racial group
consisting of half-elves.

Secondly, and here is the genetics versus magical reproduction debate :-
how could a half-elf happen in the first place? At least a horse and
donkey are closely related. What is a half-elf? Is it a biological
cross-breed that breeds true - forming a new race? <-- this is hard to
accept (and has its won difficulties). Or, can they then breed freely
with humans and/or elves forming quarter-breeds etc? (as Gary implies)
Why then, in that case, are they a race apart at all?

(and thirdly, the original Monster Manual has to be considered a little
bit suspect - and subsequent MMs are derived from it. It was published -
and I suspect filled up quickly and cheaply - as a political bargaining
chip in a hostile D&D takeover plot. Aaah, isn`t life a good reflection
of our little fantasy game? MM was rushed out because the PH and DMG
didn`t have a hope of being finished in time to gain the upper hand and
establish AD&D (cf plain D&D) as a separate entity commercially - owned
and run by a different set of people - as D&D looked like being taken
over (and in fact did). History repeats itself with 3e of course.
Anyway, a lot of that book is pretty much filler - many mundane
creatures, all those dinosaurs - when you get down to it there wasn`t
very many monsters in it! ---- still it had us eagerly awaiting the
companion Players Handbook and Dungeon Masters Guide ---- while copies
of original D&D began to gather dust on the shelves ... hee hee hee ---
worthy of a BR plotline don`t you think?)

I can understand that you don`t want to bother with a half-elf and just rule
them as one or the other. Fine. Gary apparently doesn`t distinguish
between aural and visual sensations in his campaign, so these things can be
done. But why the persistant argument that those of us who retain them are
clinging to Gygax or are just irrational? This strikes me a perfect case of
YMMV.

Oh no. I`m not saying it`s irrational. Just that you missed the point of
the argument. Hey, I think the concept adds great role-playing
opportunity, has a sound basis in fantasy literature (Tolkein).

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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Peter Lubke

09-23-2002, 07:09 AM

On Mon, 2002-09-23 at 06:01, Gary wrote:

>But no template for something that doesn`t exist - what is a half-elf?
>
>Put aside the templates, they are blinding you to the question. You
>don`t need a template for something that doesn`t exist - do you have a
>template for a 1/32 elf 5/32 dwarf 7/16 gnome 3/8 human? Do you NEED
>such a template? But I don`t want a template - I want to hear why there
>should be the concept of the half-elf, why this should get special
>treatment in mechanics.

Well, you raised the issue of 1/32 elf, etc. so I think I need to
comment. No, you don`t need templates for every possible permutation of
racial heritage. If for no other reason than because there aren`t enough
stats in the templates to reflect more than just a couple of
permutations. The existence of a middle step between the human template
and the elf template, however, is reasonable. (I`ll get to the "why" below.)

>If there`s no genetic explanation (magic, miracle, strange elven
>reproduction ability, whatever), then the child is as (or more) likely to
>be wholly human or wholly elf as any other result. If in fact, there is a
>genetic explanation (far less likely, most especially in Cerilia), then
>genetics is never exactly 50-50, and the child will always favor one
>parent - which coupled with upbringing sees an almost wholly human or (far
>more likely) wholly elf child after all.

The standard in fantasy is that certain races can mix in a way that
parallels genetics. Part of that standard is that (usually) such offspring
represent a mix of their parental characteristics, but the fantasy standard
aside, I don`t think a "realistic" genetic justification for a half-elf
would favor one parent over the other to the degree that you`re
suggesting.

Hmmm, okay that`s a good point. Although I wasn`t really talking about a
realistic genetic explanation - there is literature that does seem to
imply a mixing down to even a small amount of elf. (But again it usually
doesn`t create a separate RACE, nor do such characters have hybrid
abilities to the extent in D&D rules, sometimes just a minor or single
thing that the almost human or almost elf has: e.g. Arwen is mortal, but
that`s the only difference from elf.) [Examples from D&D fiction not
withstanding of course]

No, genetics is never exactly 50-50 but, similarly, it is
never 100-0, and it`s a mistake to think that because genetics isn`t an
exact 50-50 split that offspring will, therefore, automatically be
identical (in the template sense) to one or the other parent. Even if the
ratio is 75/25 that does not mean one should do away with the concept of a
half-elf entirely. The racial templates are themselves very broadly
defined, and the kinds of "parental favoring" you`re talking about are
probably better described as non-stat characteristics (hair, eyes color,
shape of the ear) or by going to the actual stats/ability scores of the
parent and using them for the basis of character generation.

I`m not doing away with the concept entirely - just questioning the
validity of the original assumption that it is a race apart.

Using your assumption that one parent`s influence will dominate, however,
let me as you this: Which one? Do you want to make half-elves humans or
elves?

From Tolkein: half-elves could choose - make a conscious choice. For me,
I`d say that the choice is not a conscious one - from a game mechanic
this begs the question of : when? when do you choose? The choice must be
made when the character is created - be consistent with the background
and the interpretation of how half-elves come to be. You could argue
that the union is magical - in which case the child would be what the
parents desire (or the gods deem appropriate). You could argue that the
union is biological, in which case you could just randomly determine.
You could argue that it`s a result of elf biological reproduction that
stimulates pregnancy or is stimulated by whatever
(love/emotion/non-magical something -- although some could argue that
love is magical) and have the child the same race as the mother. For
Cerilia: my adjudication is that most if not all half-elves are just
elves.

Unless your thinking that there`s some sort of dominant gene
responsible for Cerilian elven immortality, their ability score changes,
racial bonus to Listen, Spot, etc. then I think you need to go with a
hybrid mix of the two templates. I suppose if you really wanted to you
could come up with a fairly simple table of racial traits from each
template and roll randomly on it to determine specific genetic traits
getting passed on. That way you could wind up with half-elves who favored
one parent over the other randomly in a similar fashion to the roulette
wheel of actual mating. I still wouldn`t go that direction myself because
I think the half-elf template is broad enough with a few general tweaks
regarding background rather than race.

Then why aren`t the human or elf templates just as broad and just as
acceptable?

Gary

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Ariadne

09-23-2002, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by Birthright-L

Hmmm... Well, I also think that half-elves might do well as priests (druids) of Erik. Avani, being Lady of Reason is not going to turn them down for just being of Elven blood. Laerme, being the goddess of beauty might appeal to
some of them.

My personal character IS a halfelf (Khinasi/Elf 50/50) and a cleric of Cuiraécen! In my opinion a half elf can take any religion, he wants. His elven blood tends to be chaotic and may be he likes nature and beauty, but he shouldn't be oppressed to take a specific religion.

If he is raised in Khinasi by his human parent, why shouldn't he follow Avani then. If he is chaotic and likes warfare, why shouldn’t he take Cuiraécen as a patron (and not, because he likes to be a bard).

By the way, a half elf is no template, it is a race! It might be difficult to define a cross blooded human (Khinasi/ Vos 50/50 or something), but in my opinion he should get the advantages of both sub races then. If he is Anuirean/ Rjurik 75/25, he should get the Anuirean advantages and light Rjurik features.

kgauck

09-23-2002, 01:56 PM

Half-elves are not a race, nor a culture. They are hybrids. The gap
between elves and humans is plenty wide for the creation of an intermediate
possition, of a hybrid of the human and elf templates.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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Ariadne

09-23-2002, 02:02 PM

I know, that some think of halfelves as a mistake of nature (or their parents, if you want). They might be hybrids, but certainly no template.

Birthright-L

09-23-2002, 02:33 PM

On Mon, 23 Sep 2002, Ariadne wrote:
> I know, that some think of halfelves as a mistake of nature (or their
> parents, if you want). They might be hybrids, but certainly no
> template.

Um, all the races in 3e D&D are represented by templates applied to the
base character. A dwarf is a base character with +2 con, -2 cha, and a
couple of other bits tacked on. That`s a template.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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Birthright-L

09-23-2002, 03:53 PM

On Mon, 23 Sep 2002, Peter Lubke wrote:

> I`m not doing away with the concept entirely - just questioning the
> validity of the original assumption that it is a race apart.

As I see it, there are four ways to play it.

One: There is no such thing as a half-elf. Elves and humans are not
interfertile any more than eagles and squid are. No need to define them,
since they do not exist. All "canon" half-elves must be revised to be one
or the other. They do not exist, so are not a race apart.

Two: Half-elves are the offspring of an elf and a human, and they are
sterile just as mules are. No need to worry about 1/32nd elves. The D&D
half-elf "race" is just as easy to justify and apply as the mule entry in
the MM. They are a race apart for a firm, "scientific" reason.

Three: Half-elves are the offspring of an elf and a human, and they are
fertile just as their parents are. Now we do need to worry about people
as mixed as Arwen Undomiel (reading the genealogies carefully, she is
technically 25/32nds elf (mixing four distinct kindreds of the same, mind
you), 5/16ths human and 1/32nd Maia, being descended from every single
interspecies mating in First Age history). How shall we represent them in
game terms? Three categories, as the present system uses, is not a bad
first approximation. The trouble comes when drawing the lines. 0-24%,
25-75% and 76-100% would be just fine if all characteristics were
continuous and finite: you just average the parents on every trait you can
imagine, and then apply a small random factor for variety.
Unfortunately, in BR we have two binary traits: immortality and wizardry.
What is the normal lifespan of a half-elf? The average of infinity and
anything is still infinity. However, I feel that human blood should be
weak and corrupting from the Sidhelien POV, so IMO any human ancestry at
all makes a person at most a half-elf. OTOH, it is said that one needs a
bloodline or "elven blood" to be able to practice wizardry. How much is
enough? To take LoTR again, when in the recent movie version Aragorn
speaks of having "the same blood" as Isildur, he is being extremely
poetic, as over 3000 years intervene, and perusal of the king lists makes
the difference about 35 generations. Should that make him a half-elf in
D&D terms? (Certainly it made him a man far above normal men, as at the
start of the book he is already 87 years old, and lives to be 210!) If
so, then half of Cerilia would be populated by such "half"-elves, all
capable of full wizard magic. I think if one were to apply this sort of
model to BR, the proper fractions would be to place those from at least
1/8 elf to anything less than completely elf into the middle category, for
simplicity generally known as "half"-elves. They are not a race apart,
but for game mechanical purposes it is generally more convenient to model
them as if they were (for example, since no bonus or penalty is bigger
than +/-2, there`s no point in more categorization than 0,+/-1,+/-2).

Four: half-elves are a different race entirely. Elves and humans are not
interfertile, so "half-elf" is perhaps the wrong name for this race, as
they have some other source. This is in fact the case IMC, as ISTR
posting to the list about only a few months ago. This race, no more
literally half an elf than a guinea pig is literally a pig from Guinea, is
then as deserving of a D&D "race" as are elves, humans, dwarves, etc.
However, they ought to have some connection that inspired the name in the
first place. They are a race apart, due to the logical structure of the
universe.

IMC, I use the fourth option. Most humans think the third is true, but
the real story is that "half-elves" are actually a different species of
being from either elves or humans, who were originally created by the
elves (and dragons?), as a sort of servitor race and experiment in
understanding the psychodynamics of mortals, and have maintained
themselves by means of breeding true (by explictly strangely magical
means) as "pure" "half"-elves with each other and both humans and
Sidhelien (while simultaneously not replacing the humans because both
humans and elves find them very strange, and rather creepy if their true
origins are known). IMC, most humans who think they`ve met elves have in
fact only met half-elves, working as the public faces of their masters,
getting their hands dirty dealing with the filthy, verminous humans. If
they`d met *real*, *full* elves, they`d be *much* more frightened.

Ryan Caveney

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kgauck

09-23-2002, 04:22 PM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 10:10 AM

> What is the normal lifespan of a half-elf? The average of infinity and
> anything is still infinity.

Prepratory ;-)

What if elven life spans are not actually infinite, but just approach
infinity as a limit? Then we could use calculus to to find the proper age
of a half-elf. ;-)

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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Birthright-L

09-23-2002, 06:54 PM

On Mon, 23 Sep 2002, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>
>
> > What is the normal lifespan of a half-elf? The average of infinity
> > and anything is still infinity.
>
> What if elven life spans are not actually infinite, but just approach
> infinity as a limit? Then we could use calculus to to find the proper
> age of a half-elf. ;-)

*grin* Now you`re speaking my language. I suppose we could work out
complete actuarial tables for the elves, but for some probability
distributions, you could still manage an infinite average even if the
probability of living longer than a few thousand years was vanishingly
small (it`s that old "so what is 0 times infinity, anyway?" problem).

But to talk more seriously about BR, what *do* people feel half-elf
lifespans should be (assuming, of course, you think they should exist at
all)? I realize this is influenced by the varying opinions on the reality
of Sidhelien immortality (personally, I like it to be literal, at least in
Tolkien`s "ever youthful barring violence" sense, rather than figurative),
but that should only flavor the discussion, not control it. I like them
to seem immortal to humans and evanescent to elves; this seems as if it
should put them somewhere in the 500-1000 range. Comments?

Ryan Caveney

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geeman

09-23-2002, 07:11 PM

daniel mcsorley writes:

>> I know, that some think of halfelves as a mistake of nature (or their
>> parents, if you want). They might be hybrids, but certainly no
>> template.
>
> Um, all the races in 3e D&D are represented by templates applied to the
> base character. A dwarf is a base character with +2 con, -2 cha, and a
> couple of other bits tacked on. That`s a template.

I think part of the problem with the "race apart" concept is the simple use
of templates to express racial characteristics. Templates, of course, are
also used to describe half-dragons, half-celestials, half-fiends, as well as
things like ghosts and vampires. Many people like the idea that
awnsheghlien are expressed as a template. Half-elves are "a race apart" in
that they have their own template, but they aren`t "a race apart" in the
sense that I think some folks are taking that term to mean. Templates
define racial characteristics, but the issue apparently being raised
originally was whether or not half-elves should be different enough from
either elves or humans to warrant their own template. Most folks say "yes"
particularly given the assumption that so many other racial mixes are
represented as a template using characteristics of each parent.

As for half-elves being a mistake of nature... that`s possible. But if they
are humans and elves were probably the first mistake....

Gary

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Peter Lubke

09-24-2002, 04:09 AM

On Tue, 2002-09-24 at 00:24, daniel mcsorley wrote:

On Mon, 23 Sep 2002, Ariadne wrote:
> I know, that some think of halfelves as a mistake of nature (or their
> parents, if you want). They might be hybrids, but certainly no
> template.

Um, all the races in 3e D&D are represented by templates applied to the
base character. A dwarf is a base character with +2 con, -2 cha, and a
couple of other bits tacked on. That`s a template.

Congrats, you know what a template is. But not a race right?

Half-elves are a beautiful thing. They aren`t a race or a template.

--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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Peter Lubke

09-24-2002, 04:09 AM

On Tue, 2002-09-24 at 01:10, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:

On Mon, 23 Sep 2002, Peter Lubke wrote:

> I`m not doing away with the concept entirely - just questioning the
> validity of the original assumption that it is a race apart.

As I see it, there are four ways to play it.

Good coverage, reasoned rationale.
There is also a fantasy-style interbreeding that does not make elves and
humans inter-fertile but rather the elves could have the
power/ability/natural reproductive system of quickening a child when
great love or great need is present - such a magical union need not be a
blending of two species at all. Given the "elves are creatures of
starlight and pixie dust" (whether this is literal or not is unimportant
- it`s meant as a description of the wide gap between elves and
whatever) - I think that for Cerilia, it will be my choice.

You could also have a common ancestry theory. Elves and humans are
descended from the same roots - this does not fit in many fantasy
situations where there are separate creation myths for each species.

One: There is no such thing as a half-elf. Elves and humans are not
interfertile any more than eagles and squid are. No need to define them,
since they do not exist. All "canon" half-elves must be revised to be one
or the other. They do not exist, so are not a race apart.

Two: Half-elves are the offspring of an elf and a human, and they are
sterile just as mules are. No need to worry about 1/32nd elves. The D&D
half-elf "race" is just as easy to justify and apply as the mule entry in
the MM. They are a race apart for a firm, "scientific" reason.

Three: Half-elves are the offspring of an elf and a human, and they are
fertile just as their parents are. Now we do need to worry about people
as mixed as Arwen Undomiel (reading the genealogies carefully, she is
technically 25/32nds elf (mixing four distinct kindreds of the same, mind
you), 5/16ths human and 1/32nd Maia, being descended from every single
interspecies mating in First Age history). How shall we represent them in
game terms? Three categories, as the present system uses, is not a bad
first approximation. The trouble comes when drawing the lines. 0-24%,
25-75% and 76-100% would be just fine if all characteristics were
continuous and finite: you just average the parents on every trait you can
imagine, and then apply a small random factor for variety.
Unfortunately, in BR we have two binary traits: immortality and wizardry.
What is the normal lifespan of a half-elf? The average of infinity and
anything is still infinity. However, I feel that human blood should be
weak and corrupting from the Sidhelien POV, so IMO any human ancestry at
all makes a person at most a half-elf. OTOH, it is said that one needs a
bloodline or "elven blood" to be able to practice wizardry. How much is
enough? To take LoTR again, when in the recent movie version Aragorn
speaks of having "the same blood" as Isildur, he is being extremely
poetic, as over 3000 years intervene, and perusal of the king lists makes
the difference about 35 generations. Should that make him a half-elf in
D&D terms? (Certainly it made him a man far above normal men, as at the
start of the book he is already 87 years old, and lives to be 210!) If
so, then half of Cerilia would be populated by such "half"-elves, all
capable of full wizard magic. I think if one were to apply this sort of
model to BR, the proper fractions would be to place those from at least
1/8 elf to anything less than completely elf into the middle category, for
simplicity generally known as "half"-elves. They are not a race apart,
but for game mechanical purposes it is generally more convenient to model
them as if they were (for example, since no bonus or penalty is bigger
than +/-2, there`s no point in more categorization than 0,+/-1,+/-2).

Four: half-elves are a different race entirely. Elves and humans are not
interfertile, so "half-elf" is perhaps the wrong name for this race, as
they have some other source. This is in fact the case IMC, as ISTR
posting to the list about only a few months ago. This race, no more
literally half an elf than a guinea pig is literally a pig from Guinea, is
then as deserving of a D&D "race" as are elves, humans, dwarves, etc.
However, they ought to have some connection that inspired the name in the
first place. They are a race apart, due to the logical structure of the
universe.

IMC, I use the fourth option. Most humans think the third is true, but
the real story is that "half-elves" are actually a different species of
being from either elves or humans, who were originally created by the
elves (and dragons?), as a sort of servitor race and experiment in
understanding the psychodynamics of mortals, and have maintained
themselves by means of breeding true (by explictly strangely magical
means) as "pure" "half"-elves with each other and both humans and
Sidhelien (while simultaneously not replacing the humans because both
humans and elves find them very strange, and rather creepy if their true
origins are known). IMC, most humans who think they`ve met elves have in
fact only met half-elves, working as the public faces of their masters,
getting their hands dirty dealing with the filthy, verminous humans. If
they`d met *real*, *full* elves, they`d be *much* more frightened.

Ryan Caveney

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Peter Lubke

09-24-2002, 05:13 AM

On Tue, 2002-09-24 at 04:31, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:

On Mon, 23 Sep 2002, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>
>
> > What is the normal lifespan of a half-elf? The average of infinity
> > and anything is still infinity.
>
> What if elven life spans are not actually infinite, but just approach
> infinity as a limit? Then we could use calculus to to find the proper
> age of a half-elf. ;-)

*grin* Now you`re speaking my language. I suppose we could work out
complete actuarial tables for the elves, but for some probability
distributions, you could still manage an infinite average even if the
probability of living longer than a few thousand years was vanishingly
small (it`s that old "so what is 0 times infinity, anyway?" problem).

But to talk more seriously about BR, what *do* people feel half-elf
lifespans should be (assuming, of course, you think they should exist at
all)? I realize this is influenced by the varying opinions on the reality
of Sidhelien immortality (personally, I like it to be literal, at least in
Tolkien`s "ever youthful barring violence" sense, rather than figurative),
but that should only flavor the discussion, not control it. I like them
to seem immortal to humans and evanescent to elves; this seems as if it
should put them somewhere in the 500-1000 range. Comments?

What if immortality is related to the Sidhelien life-style (good clean
living caring for nature, nothing bad in your body kind of thing)? Then
technically their bodies simply don`t age - although they can still die
of course. Certain events in their lifetime might age them slightly but
not on the day-to-day basis that other races do.

In such cases a half-elf raised with elves would be similarly
influenced. Violence and adventuring outside (where the customs of other
peoples are by necessity adopted even temporarily) will slowly age the
character - even an elf character - although returning to the forest
homes can return the character to a state of statsis. (does that last
phrase even make sense)

Ryan Caveney

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Peter Lubke

09-24-2002, 05:13 AM

On Tue, 2002-09-24 at 04:50, Gary Foss wrote:

daniel mcsorley writes:

>> I know, that some think of halfelves as a mistake of nature (or their
>> parents, if you want). They might be hybrids, but certainly no
>> template.
>
> Um, all the races in 3e D&D are represented by templates applied to the
> base character. A dwarf is a base character with +2 con, -2 cha, and a
> couple of other bits tacked on. That`s a template.

I think part of the problem with the "race apart" concept is the simple use
of templates to express racial characteristics. Templates, of course, are
also used to describe half-dragons, half-celestials, half-fiends, as well as
things like ghosts and vampires. Many people like the idea that
awnsheghlien are expressed as a template. Half-elves are "a race apart" in
that they have their own template, but they aren`t "a race apart" in the
sense that I think some folks are taking that term to mean. Templates
define racial characteristics, but the issue apparently being raised
originally was whether or not half-elves should be different enough from
either elves or humans to warrant their own template. Most folks say "yes"
particularly given the assumption that so many other racial mixes are
represented as a template using characteristics of each parent.

Chicken and egg syndrome here. The `half-elf` was the first half-breed -
which was rationale for the others I think. I don`t think you can then
argue that the existence of the others explains the half-elf.

But enough of this I think. Whether they are a race apart or not - I was
not suggesting abandoning the concept of the half-elf. I think that
given the arguments presented already - there is a good reason to
abandon their template - as there is sufficient variation within
templates to explain the elf characteristics in an (half-)human, and the
human characteristics in an (half-)elf without the need for a hybrid
template.

The name `half-elf` is significant itself -- it implies that the
character is human - with some elf. That is, we only need to mention the
`taint` so to speak (no disrespect intended). But most players want a
character that is almost all elf with just enough human to avoid the
restrictions on elves - such a character is more properly an elf - or if
you prefer a `half-human`, that is an elf with some human
characteristics.

As for half-elves being a mistake of nature... that`s possible. But if they
are humans and elves were probably the first mistake....

Gary

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geeman

09-24-2002, 05:45 AM

At 02:24 PM 9/24/2002 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

> I think part of the problem with the "race apart" concept is the
> simple use
> of templates to express racial characteristics. Templates, of
> course, are
> also used to describe half-dragons, half-celestials, half-fiends, as
> well as
> things like ghosts and vampires. Many people like the idea that
> awnsheghlien are expressed as a template. Half-elves are "a race
> apart" in
> that they have their own template, but they aren`t "a race apart" in the
> sense that I think some folks are taking that term to mean. Templates
> define racial characteristics, but the issue apparently being raised
> originally was whether or not half-elves should be different enough from
> either elves or humans to warrant their own template. Most folks say
> "yes"
> particularly given the assumption that so many other racial mixes are
> represented as a template using characteristics of each parent.
>
>Chicken and egg syndrome here. The `half-elf` was the first half-breed -
>which was rationale for the others I think.

That may be, though I think for someone who normally lauds the earlier
rules this is a strange place to make a departure.... No grand eloquence
to the early incarnation of the half-elf like that of the 1 minute combat
round or the arcane numerology of the -10 rule? Weren`t the early D&D game
designers much closer to the source of their thinking on the
subject? Surely you`re faith hasn`t waivered.... (More on this in a moment.)

>I don`t think you can then argue that the existence of the others explains
>the half-elf.

No? Why not?

Even if that argument isn`t convincing, however, it wasn`t what I was tryng
to suggest. What I was trying to get at was that the term "a race apart"
is misleading. It expresses the half-elf template as being as different
from either the elven template or the human template as they are from one
another when, in fact, the template is a mix of both. Describing
half-elves as "a race apart" gives the impression that the mating of a
human and an elf makes for a goblin child. The term "a race apart" is
incorrectly applied to the mixing of two races when the templates in
question is very similar to both the races from which it is derived.

Anyway, I`m not arguing that the existence of others explains the
half-elf. I`m arguing that half-elves as similar to, but using slightly
different stats from humans and elves, fits into the standard that has been
around since the beginning of the game. Ignore the half-elf for a
moment. D&D assumes that many crossed creatures, whether they come from
mating or not, will have attributes of both (or all three, all four) of the
creatures from which they are derived. There are scads of examples of
this. Again--still ignoring half-elves--we could include from very early
in the game half-orcs, minotaurs, monstrous creatures like chimeras and
sphinxes. Later D&D racial/monstrous combinations produced cambions,
gorgimera, yuan ti, half-dragons, half-ogres, half-giants, half-etc. There
are probably dozens more that we could find if we cared to go through 30 or
so years of D&D products. (But let`s not.) Each of these creatures has
characteristics derived from both their parents (or whatever the entities
are upon which they are based) and usually represent a middle ground
between those two (or three+.)

OK, with that in perspective let`s now take a look at the half-elf. You`re
saying that in this particular case half-elves should take on the
characteristics of one or the other of their parents. Of course, there is
a rationale for doing so--Tolkien`s half-elves. To me, that`s all you need
to justify such a decision. In fact, "I feel like it" is grounds enough.

BUT.

There`s been a standard in place here for a long time. It`s cool to throw
out that standard for an exceptional case, but I would suggest that not
only are half-elves not an exceptional case, they fit right in there along
with the rest. Tolkien`s elves could choose to be elf or human but that
choice was all wrapped up in the cosmology of his setting, which is mostly
lacking in most D&D settings. (In actuality the Tolkien half-elf choice
was elf or super long-lived human hybrid--with an eternal soul in place of
eternal youth--and more mystical powers than a typical human.) BR elves
are closer to the Tolkien standard of elfdom, but there are still
significant differences, and the campaign setting already has a pretty big
background cosmology that differs in significant respects from Tolkien`s.

>But enough of this I think. Whether they are a race apart or not - I was
>not suggesting abandoning the concept of the half-elf. I think that given
>the arguments presented already - there is a good reason to
>abandon their template - as there is sufficient variation within templates
>to explain the elf characteristics in an (half-)human, and the human
>characteristics in an (half-)elf without the need for a hybrid template.

I`m going to suggest that there aren`t enough elven characteristics in the
human template to express the half-elf, nor are there enough human
characteristics in the elven template to express the half-elf. Besides,
it`s just so easy, sensible and in keeping with the standard to pick a few
traits from either template to come to a middle ground....

>The name `half-elf` is significant itself -- it implies that the character
>is human - with some elf. That is, we only need to mention the `taint` so
>to speak (no disrespect intended).

Unless there are again definitions to these terms being applied that I`m
unaware of, "half-elf" implies that the character is half elven and half
human. A character "with some elf" or "tainted" would be something less
than "half." There are a couple of examples of how having a small amount
of elven blood can influence a character, and I think those might be better
to portray a character with something less than 1/4 elven heritage.

>But most players want a character that is almost all elf with just enough
>human to avoid the restrictions on elves - such a character is more
>properly an elf - or if you prefer a `half-human`, that is an elf with
>some human characteristics.

That`s news to me. I`ve never had a player express that that was what they
were after in playing a half-elf character. I`ve played a few myself and
that particular dichotomy never occurred to me. I always figured
half-elves got about half their characteristics (game mechanical and
otherwise) from each of their parents.

Gary

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geeman

09-24-2002, 07:23 AM

At 11:10 AM 9/23/2002 -0400, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:

>Elves and humans are not interfertile any more than eagles and squid are.

OK, did anyone else read that and immediately start thinking of what the
stats for the eagle-squid might be, or was it just me? Appearing soon, a
new awnshegh: The Squeagle!

Gary

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Peter Lubke

09-24-2002, 08:00 AM

On Tue, 2002-09-24 at 15:35, Gary wrote:

At 02:24 PM 9/24/2002 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

That may be, though I think for someone who normally lauds the earlier
rules this is a strange place to make a departure.... No grand eloquence
to the early incarnation of the half-elf like that of the 1 minute combat
round or the arcane numerology of the -10 rule? Weren`t the early D&D game
designers much closer to the source of their thinking on the
subject? Surely you`re faith hasn`t waivered.... (More on this in a moment.)

In this case, yes, I don`t think that they should have introduced the
half-elf, or the wood elf, the valley elf, the grugarch, the dark elf as
anything other than variations within the elf race -- most of which were
eventually dropped anyway. Elf was quite sufficient.

>I don`t think you can then argue that the existence of the others explains
>the half-elf.

No? Why not?

Even if that argument isn`t convincing, however, it wasn`t what I was tryng
to suggest. What I was trying to get at was that the term "a race apart"
is misleading. It expresses the half-elf template as being as different
from either the elven template or the human template as they are from one
another when, in fact, the template is a mix of both. Describing
half-elves as "a race apart" gives the impression that the mating of a
human and an elf makes for a goblin child. The term "a race apart" is
incorrectly applied to the mixing of two races when the templates in
question is very similar to both the races from which it is derived.

Anyway, I`m not arguing that the existence of others explains the
half-elf. I`m arguing that half-elves as similar to, but using slightly
different stats from humans and elves, fits into the standard that has been
around since the beginning of the game.

Oh, okay then.

Ignore the half-elf for a
moment. D&D assumes that many crossed creatures, whether they come from
mating or not, will have attributes of both (or all three, all four) of the
creatures from which they are derived. There are scads of examples of
this. Again--still ignoring half-elves--we could include from very early
in the game half-orcs, minotaurs, monstrous creatures like chimeras and
sphinxes. Later D&D racial/monstrous combinations produced cambions,
gorgimera, yuan ti, half-dragons, half-ogres, half-giants, half-etc. There
are probably dozens more that we could find if we cared to go through 30 or
so years of D&D products. (But let`s not.) Each of these creatures has
characteristics derived from both their parents (or whatever the entities
are upon which they are based) and usually represent a middle ground
between those two (or three+.)

Somewhat generalizing here, but going with the theme of the argument ...
(while reserving rebuttal in many instances)

OK, with that in perspective let`s now take a look at the half-elf. You`re
saying that in this particular case half-elves should take on the
characteristics of one or the other of their parents. Of course, there is
a rationale for doing so--Tolkien`s half-elves. To me, that`s all you need
to justify such a decision. In fact, "I feel like it" is grounds enough.

BUT.

There`s been a standard in place here for a long time. It`s cool to throw
out that standard for an exceptional case, but I would suggest that not
only are half-elves not an exceptional case, they fit right in there along
with the rest.

They are in fact the prototype of many of them. Others are real hybrids
or even failed magical duplication/cloning/whatever (rebutting the
earlier generalization now). So, no, I don`t think that they `fit right
in there along with the rest`. But again, following the argument as it
applies to *some* ...

Tolkien`s elves could choose to be elf or human but that
choice was all wrapped up in the cosmology of his setting, which is mostly
lacking in most D&D settings. (In actuality the Tolkien half-elf choice
was elf or super long-lived human hybrid--with an eternal soul in place of
eternal youth--and more mystical powers than a typical human.) BR elves
are closer to the Tolkien standard of elfdom, but there are still
significant differences, and the campaign setting already has a pretty big
background cosmology that differs in significant respects from Tolkien`s.

Is that it? ... (disappointment) started out as a possible real
argument. Am I missing something? And your point is?

>But enough of this I think. Whether they are a race apart or not - I was
>not suggesting abandoning the concept of the half-elf. I think that given
>the arguments presented already - there is a good reason to
>abandon their template - as there is sufficient variation within templates
>to explain the elf characteristics in an (half-)human, and the human
>characteristics in an (half-)elf without the need for a hybrid template.

I`m going to suggest that there aren`t enough elven characteristics in the
human template to express the half-elf, nor are there enough human
characteristics in the elven template to express the half-elf. Besides,
it`s just so easy, sensible and in keeping with the standard to pick a few
traits from either template to come to a middle ground....

>The name `half-elf` is significant itself -- it implies that the character
>is human - with some elf. That is, we only need to mention the `taint` so
>to speak (no disrespect intended).

Unless there are again definitions to these terms being applied that I`m
unaware of,

Common English language usage. (which I`m told is not so common on the
web - so I apologize)
The implied other `half` is human, with elf forming up to 50% -- more
correctly, in th English-speaking world, we`d use a term like
`part-Chinese` to describe someone who had some Chinese ancestry with
the other parts undefined - but assumed to be whatever the dominant
culture of the locale is. (The dominant culture in Cerilia and most D&D
worlds is human). In fact full-blooded rarely (I can`t think of an
example but just in case) means 100% pure ancestry. Without going
all-ethnic and risking overtures of politically incorrect racial tones
-- and remember that the term half-elf was composed 50 years ago --
half-`xxxxx` (insert race here) may simply imply a mixed heritage
(apologies to Arwen Evenstar) with no distinct ratio being implied.

"half-elf" implies that the character is half elven and half
human.

Gee, and here I thought we`d established that as total fiction. In fact
I thought that was the one thing that had been 100% established. (
Except in Ryan`s case 4. ) `half` as NOT meaning 50% in this case.

A character "with some elf" or "tainted" would be something less
than "half." There are a couple of examples of how having a small amount
of elven blood can influence a character, and I think those might be better
to portray a character with something less than 1/4 elven heritage.

>But most players want a character that is almost all elf with just enough
>human to avoid the restrictions on elves - such a character is more
>properly an elf - or if you prefer a `half-human`, that is an elf with
>some human characteristics.

That`s news to me. I`ve never had a player express that that was what they
were after in playing a half-elf character. I`ve played a few myself and
that particular dichotomy never occurred to me. I always figured
half-elves got about half their characteristics (game mechanical and
otherwise) from each of their parents.

Actually I`ve never played a half-elf, a full elf yes. In fact they`ve
been pretty rare in my campaigning - one does come to mind - and there
the motivation was to play a ranger character that had immediate access
to priest spells (half-elf ranger-cleric, yeah it was an old 1e
campaign). Oh and a half-elf priest-magic-user, whose motivation were to
get more spells than usual at early levels (being a first level mage
sucks). And I`ve never had to DM a half-elf either (that I can
remember).

It is rare in my experience to find a player that chooses his or her
character based on background or personality rather than ability - what
they can do.(actually both the above characters were played by female
players -- not enough of a sample for real statistics but given the
ratio of male to female role-players very interesting) i.e I`ve seen
players decide to play halflings `because they make better thieves` or
dwarves `because they have more hit points and better saving throws`.
(not that this is necessarily wrong but it does go to the question of
motive)

[will Argus the goat-god forgive my generalization here?] -- campaign
joke. Really. In one of my campaigns a player wanted to play a goat-god
-- actually wanted to play an insane character who thought he was a god
(of goats) -- ever adventured with someone who insists on bringing a
herd of goats with him? (it didn`t work out - my character and another
tried to `release the goats` - they smell and it`s real hard to move
fast or sneak up on anything with a herd of goats around - this ended up
splitting the party and creating a character vendetta -- fun but quite
silly. OH, the point .. yes .. the character class of the character was
priest (not god - although where he got his spells from was never fully
explained). Now this is a `class` not a `race` example but the
distinction in motive is the same.

Neither of the above players wished to play a half-elf because they
wanted the challenge of dealing with a hybrid heritage, but because they
wanted the advantage of that heritage.

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Peter Lubke

09-24-2002, 08:47 AM

On Tue, 2002-09-24 at 17:07, Gary wrote:

At 11:10 AM 9/23/2002 -0400, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:

>Elves and humans are not interfertile any more than eagles and squid are.

OK, did anyone else read that and immediately start thinking of what the
stats for the eagle-squid might be, or was it just me? Appearing soon, a
new awnshegh: The Squeagle!

Can`t wait for the template.....seriously, you mentioned it - let`s see
it!

Gary

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Ariadne

09-24-2002, 12:26 PM

Originally posted by Peter Lubke

Half-elves are a beautiful thing. They aren`t a race or a template.
If we have discussed enough, that a halfelf is no race, no culture AND no template, what is he then (apart from hybrid)?

@all Birthright-L users: If you quote something, please delete or mark the rest somehow, if possible. After quoting someone a third time, no one can realize, what actually is written! It's very confusing to read something a third time and realize then, it's only a quote... (sorry for the off topic)

Peter Lubke

09-24-2002, 02:12 PM

On Tue, 2002-09-24 at 22:26, Ariadne wrote:

This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=958

Ariadne wrote:

Originally posted by Peter Lubke

Half-elves are a beautiful thing. They aren`t a race or a template.
If we have discussed enough, that a half elf is no race, no culture AND no template,
what is he then (apart from hybrid)?

A role-playing opportunity?
Realistically Gary is correct, they are too ingrained into the game to
be done away with. (much like paladins are!) But perhaps we don`t need
to work so hard on making them different. Maybe all they are is a hybrid
- under most of the explanations I`ve heard so far, that`s all that`s
justified. (Ryan`s choice 4 being a standout exception)

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kgauck

09-24-2002, 02:24 PM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 2:07 AM

> OK, did anyone else read that and immediately start thinking of what the
> stats for the eagle-squid might be, or was it just me? Appearing soon, a
> new awnshegh: The Squeagle!

I was thinking more of the kind of arcane manipulation which created the
owlbear. I am looking forward to creating flocks of Squeegee.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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Birthright-L

09-24-2002, 04:37 PM

On Tue, 24 Sep 2002, Peter Lubke wrote:

> Good coverage, reasoned rationale.

Thank you. =)

> There is also a fantasy-style interbreeding that does not make elves
> and humans inter-fertile but rather the elves could have the
> power/ability/natural reproductive system of quickening a child when
> great love or great need is present - such a magical union need not be
> a blending of two species at all.

So, this is not so much interbreeding as it is parthenogenesis? That is,
the child is called a "half-elf" because it has only one physical parent,
which is an elf? This strikes me as a fascinating version of my case 4 --
I`d like to hear more.

> Given the "elves are creatures of starlight and pixie dust" (whether
> this is literal or not is unimportant - it`s meant as a description of
> the wide gap between elves and whatever) - I think that for Cerilia,
> it will be my choice.

You may even convert me -- this sort of natural ability to one-off for
highly personal reasons does seem a lot more consistent with the setting
than the sci-fi cliche "vat grown warrior servant race" that previously
shaded my interpretation of Cerilian half-elves.

One other aspect of my version of half-elves that I don`t recall if I`ve
mentioned previously is that there is a difficult and obscure but still
occasionally practiced ritual to turn humans (and possibly, but not
necessarily, elves) into half-elves (but not, I think, vice-versa). This
is an interpretation of the ancient myths about people who spend a night
in fairyland and return to find that decades or centuries have passed; it
also works well with your idea of "lifestyle immortality" -- humans turned
into half-elves this way can live forever if they stay in fairyland, but
grow old and die if they leave. Literary sources for this idea range from
an alteration of Earendil`s choice in Tolkien, to Sinclair and Delenn in
Babylon 5, to the AD&D 2e FR "Cormanthyr" supplement, and IMO to veiled
plot hooks in some of the BR materials. There are a couple of ostensibly
human wizards in Anuire and Khinasi (whose names escape me at the moment)
who are rumored to be much older than they look, and have once disappeared
to parts unknown for a long time, after which they came back both more
powerful and different somehow. IMC, they went to the ancient Sidhelien
forests and were turned into half-elves. Their reasons for doing it are
clear: longer life, a chance to study with the best wizards on the planet,
and IMC since bloodline and elven ancestry each separately enable
wizardry, having both makes you even better at it. What the elves get out
of it is less clear; presumably various forms of service are required as
payment, and powerful geases are placed on the recipient to make sure that
the powerup works to advance rather than hinder the Sidhelien cause.

> You could also have a common ancestry theory. Elves and humans are
> descended from the same roots - this does not fit in many fantasy
> situations where there are separate creation myths for each species.

Hmm. I suppose this is a variation of -- or rather, a particular
background justification for -- case 2 or 3, depending on the degree of
speciation involved. I can`t say I like it, but I do think I`ve
categorized it.

Ryan Caveney

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Peter Lubke

09-24-2002, 04:37 PM

On Wed, 2002-09-25 at 00:13, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 2:07 AM

> OK, did anyone else read that and immediately start thinking of what the
> stats for the eagle-squid might be, or was it just me? Appearing soon, a
> new awnshegh: The Squeagle!

I was thinking more of the kind of arcane manipulation which created the
owlbear. I am looking forward to creating flocks of Squeegee.

flocks or schools? I don`t think that the collective noun for Squeegee
should be `flocks`. ---
? swarms ? or how about ?pools? perhaps we can set up an on-line vote

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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Peter Lubke

09-24-2002, 04:55 PM

On Wed, 2002-09-25 at 02:12, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:

On Tue, 24 Sep 2002, Peter Lubke wrote:

> Good coverage, reasoned rationale.

Thank you. =)

> There is also a fantasy-style interbreeding that does not make elves
> and humans inter-fertile but rather the elves could have the
> power/ability/natural reproductive system of quickening a child when
> great love or great need is present - such a magical union need not be
> a blending of two species at all.

So, this is not so much interbreeding as it is parthenogenesis? That is,
the child is called a "half-elf" because it has only one physical parent,
which is an elf? This strikes me as a fascinating version of my case 4 --
I`d like to hear more.

Just pointing out more options - not advocating a particular one. But
not quite parthenogenesis - which if memory serves, creates a clone of
the original - but a true new child. I mean who can be certain that
elves have a similar reproductive system to humans in the first place --
an immortal race raises deep reproductive issues which have been dealt
with in fiction many times over. Such a race would either naturally have
some kind of birth control, or strict cultural birth control, or
possibly no way of generally reproducing. The conditions for elven
reproduction may not be simply physical.

> Given the "elves are creatures of starlight and pixie dust" (whether
> this is literal or not is unimportant - it`s meant as a description of
> the wide gap between elves and whatever) - I think that for Cerilia,
> it will be my choice.

You may even convert me -- this sort of natural ability to one-off for
highly personal reasons does seem a lot more consistent with the setting
than the sci-fi cliche "vat grown warrior servant race" that previously
shaded my interpretation of Cerilian half-elves.

One other aspect of my version of half-elves that I don`t recall if I`ve
mentioned previously is that there is a difficult and obscure but still
occasionally practiced ritual to turn humans (and possibly, but not
necessarily, elves) into half-elves (but not, I think, vice-versa).

That`s quite benign really. (Sort of Vampiric too) The Tolkien orcs are
either twisted elves or failed attempts to breed elves -- now they
should be able to inter-breed (hee hee). Did you catch the interesting
way that the birth/reproduction/whatever-it-was of the Urak-Hai and
Olog-Hai (Sarumans creations - spelling is probably incorrect) were
portrayed in Fellowship of the Ring movie?

This
is an interpretation of the ancient myths about people who spend a night
in fairyland and return to find that decades or centuries have passed; it
also works well with your idea of "lifestyle immortality" -- humans turned
into half-elves this way can live forever if they stay in fairyland, but
grow old and die if they leave. Literary sources for this idea range from
an alteration of Earendil`s choice in Tolkien, to Sinclair and Delenn in
Babylon 5, to the AD&D 2e FR "Cormanthyr" supplement, and IMO to veiled
plot hooks in some of the BR materials.

As one of Goldie Hawn`s old comic partners would say. "Interesting, very
interesting .."

There are a couple of ostensibly
human wizards in Anuire and Khinasi (whose names escape me at the moment)
who are rumored to be much older than they look, and have once disappeared
to parts unknown for a long time, after which they came back both more
powerful and different somehow. IMC, they went to the ancient Sidhelien
forests and were turned into half-elves. Their reasons for doing it are
clear: longer life, a chance to study with the best wizards on the planet,
and IMC since bloodline and elven ancestry each separately enable
wizardry, having both makes you even better at it. What the elves get out
of it is less clear; presumably various forms of service are required as
payment, and powerful geases are placed on the recipient to make sure that
the powerup works to advance rather than hinder the Sidhelien cause.

> You could also have a common ancestry theory. Elves and humans are
> descended from the same roots - this does not fit in many fantasy
> situations where there are separate creation myths for each species.

Hmm. I suppose this is a variation of -- or rather, a particular
background justification for -- case 2 or 3, depending on the degree of
speciation involved. I can`t say I like it, but I do think I`ve
categorized it.

Ryan Caveney

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Birthright-L

09-24-2002, 08:59 PM

On Tue, 24 Sep 2002, Peter Lubke wrote:

> What if immortality is related to the Sidhelien life-style (good clean
> living caring for nature, nothing bad in your body kind of thing)? Then
> technically their bodies simply don`t age - although they can still die
> of course. Certain events in their lifetime might age them slightly but
> not on the day-to-day basis that other races do.

I actually use a variation on this IMC, but it`s not so much "lifestyle"
as it is magical biology. That is, IMC, the way Sidhelien immortality
operates is that they draw sustenance directly from ambient magical
energy: that is, mebhaighl. My Sidhelien can only really live
comfortably in a province with a source potential of at least six. In
provinces with potential nine, they have stat and speed bonuses, and don`t
actually need to eat at all unless they want to. Around source potential
3, they become susceptible to disease, need to sleep, and have to eat
about twice as much as a human of the same mass. Below that, they have
stat and speed penalties, tire easily, need to eat much more than humans
do to maintain health, and actually begin to age. Trapped in a province
with source potential zero, an elf will die of magical starvation in about
a week. All these bad effects can be halted or reversed by going back
into a province with a sufficiently high source potential and staying
there long enough.

> In such cases a half-elf raised with elves would be similarly
> influenced. Violence and adventuring outside (where the customs of
> other peoples are by necessity adopted even temporarily) will slowly
> age the character - even an elf character -

I can use this idea in my own model easily enough -- lesser penalties for
being outside the ancient forests, at the price of lesser benefits inside
them -- though I`d look at it as inhospitable terrain (inadequate "food"
supply) rather than unhippie customs. ;)

> although returning to the forest homes can return the character to a
> state of statsis. (does that last phrase even make sense)

Yes, perfectly.

Ryan Caveney

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Birthright-L

09-24-2002, 09:08 PM

On Wed, 25 Sep 2002, Peter Lubke wrote:

> On Wed, 2002-09-25 at 00:13, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
>
> > From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
> >
> > > OK, did anyone else read that and immediately start thinking of
> > > what the stats for the eagle-squid might be, or was it just me?
> > > Appearing soon, a new awnshegh: The Squeagle!
> >
> > I was thinking more of the kind of arcane manipulation which
> > created the owlbear. I am looking forward to creating flocks
> > of Squeegee.
>
> flocks or schools? I don`t think that the collective noun for Squeegee
> should be `flocks`. --- ? swarms ? or how about ?pools? perhaps we
> can set up an on-line vote

What have I done?! I`ve created a monster! ;>

BTW, you guys are *weird*.

Which is presumably why I hang out here.

Ryan

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kgauck

09-24-2002, 10:12 PM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>
Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 11:12 AM

> There are a couple of ostensibly human wizards in Anuire and
> Khinasi (whose names escape me at the moment) who are rumored
> to be much older than they look, and have once disappeared
> to parts unknown for a long time, after which they came back both
> more powerful and different somehow. IMC, they went to the ancient
> Sidhelien forests and were turned into half-elves.

This is very interesting. One such wizard is Torele Anviras of Talinie.
His description there tells us he ran off into the woods and didn`t emerge
until the recent guild activity in Talinie began to cut down the forests.
That cutting almost led to war with Tuarhievel. Suddenly Torele appears,
not a month aged, and brokers a settlement. He seemed to erect a tower
overnight, declared himself mage of Talinie (IMC he also usurped his old
families title as Earl of Freestad by mysterious means.) His personality is
said to be changed, he is said to wield great powers, and he has these
connections with the elves. He is distant from others, and may very well
have been converted into a semi-sidhe.

> What the elves get out of it is less clear; presumably various forms
> of service are required as payment, and powerful geases are placed
> on the recipient to make sure that the powerup works to advance
> rather than hinder the Sidhelien cause.

Well in Torele`s case, the elves seemed to get somthing pretty clear.
"Everyone regards him as an indispensible aid to the realm`s defense."
Putting an indispensible man into Talinie suddenly gives the elves
tremendous leverage over the policy of that realm. He may combat the
guilds, and for his cooperation against the goblins, demand other things
pleasing to Tuarhievel as well. As far as the printed material (any IMC as
well) Torele Anviras has the highest bloodline as well.

Its too good not to use in some form. Many thanks.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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kgauck

09-24-2002, 10:17 PM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Lubke" <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>
Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 11:37 AM

> Just pointing out more options - not advocating a particular one. But
> not quite parthenogenesis - which if memory serves, creates a clone of
> the original - but a true new child. I mean who can be certain that
> elves have a similar reproductive system to humans in the first place --

Pathenos just means virgin. So any virgin birth (merry Chirstmas) is an
example of parthenogenisis.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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geeman

09-25-2002, 01:07 AM

At 06:33 PM 9/24/2002 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

>Can`t wait for the template.....seriously, you mentioned it - let`s see it!

Actually, I`ve come to the conclusion that one should use either the eagle
or the squid template to express an eagle-squid offspring. Coming up with
stats for such a hybrid would imply that they are a race apart.

Gary

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geeman

09-25-2002, 01:07 AM

At 02:26 PM 9/24/2002 +0200, Ariadne wrote:

>@all Birthright-L users: If you quote something, please delete or
>mark the rest somehow, if possible. After quoting someone a third time, no
>one can realize, what actually is written! It`s very confusing to read
>something a third time and realize then, it`s only a quote... (sorry for
>the off topic)

I`ve asked Arjan about this particular issue, so we`ll see if he can come
up with something. He`s got an excellent track record and has done great
work combining these two communities, so whether he can wave his magic
keyboard and solve this problem or not we should all pucker up and send him
a big smooch for all his effort. (He may prefer Paypal contributions, but
it`s the thought that counts.)

Gary

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Trithemius

09-25-2002, 03:11 AM

Ryan Caveney
> But to talk more seriously about BR, what *do* people feel
> half-elf lifespans should be (assuming, of course, you think
> they should exist at all)? I realize this is influenced by
> the varying opinions on the reality of Sidhelien immortality
> (personally, I like it to be literal, at least in Tolkien`s
> "ever youthful barring violence" sense, rather than
> figurative), but that should only flavor the discussion, not
> control it. I like them to seem immortal to humans and
> evanescent to elves; this seems as if it should put them
> somewhere in the 500-1000 range. Comments?

I`m of the opinion the the sidhelien are literally immortal. I am not
ruling out the idea of "death from ennui" though since I rather like the
idea that some sidhe just get sick of living in such a dismal world
(compared with what it was like in the Good Old Days).

With respect to half-sidhe, I am inclined to be a bit more varied,. I`d
say that some live for a very long time (five times as long as humans or
even longer) while others will be (at most) twice as long-living as
humans. The half-sidhe`s longevity could be linked to their "lifestyle
choice", as I mentioned in an earlier post.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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Trithemius

09-25-2002, 03:11 AM

Gary:
> OK, did anyone else read that and immediately start thinking
> of what the stats for the eagle-squid might be, or was it
> just me? Appearing soon, a new awnshegh: The Squeagle!

Holy Cthuthulu-crossover Batman!

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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Ariadne

09-25-2002, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by geeman

I`ve asked Arjan about this particular issue, so we`ll see if he can come up with something. He`s got an excellent track record and has done great work combining these two communities, so whether he can wave his magic keyboard and solve this problem or not we should all pucker up and send him a big smooch for all his effort. (He may prefer Paypal contributions, but it`s the thought that counts.)
So let him role a natural 20 on his attempt (his magical keyboard +6 will help him, I think)... ;)

Lee

09-25-2002, 09:34 PM

In a message dated 9/23/02 2:35:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET writes:

<< But to talk more seriously about BR, what *do* people feel half-elf
lifespans should be (assuming, of course, you think they should exist at
all)? I realize this is influenced by the varying opinions on the reality
of Sidhelien immortality (personally, I like it to be literal, at least in
Tolkien`s "ever youthful barring violence" sense, rather than figurative),
but that should only flavor the discussion, not control it. I like them
to seem immortal to humans and evanescent to elves; this seems as if it
should put them somewhere in the 500-1000 range. Comments? >>

For the sake of simplicity, I just use the PH`s age tables, using the "elf"
listing for half-elf.

Lee.

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Birthright-L

09-25-2002, 11:42 PM

On Wed, 25 Sep 2002, Peter Lubke wrote:

> not quite parthenogenesis - which if memory serves, creates a clone of
> the original - but a true new child. I mean who can be certain that
> elves have a similar reproductive system to humans in the first place --

I`d prefer that they have basically the same reproductive system, but
you`re quite right that it might be wildly different. With regard to it
being a true new child, where does the newness arise? Straying into the
perilous terrain of fantasy magical genetics, what causes the difference
between child and parent? Is there a need for a second person as a sort
of mystical-only parent as a sort of information donor?

> an immortal race raises deep reproductive issues which have been dealt
> with in fiction many times over. Such a race would either naturally have
> some kind of birth control, or strict cultural birth control, or
> possibly no way of generally reproducing. The conditions for elven
> reproduction may not be simply physical.

Quite true. One way of working half-elves into this is to say that
perhaps elven fertility is an uncertain and imperfect copying mechanism,
and that the vast majority of children born to immortal elves are in fact
mortal half-elves, "half" in this case being a loose translation of
"lesser" or "diminished". I take my inspiration for this idea (which
seems to be a case 5, rather than part of any of the other categories I
identified previously) from another fantasy RPG setting, namely the dark
troll / trollkin dichotomy in Glorantha. Pulling in another element of
that situation, perhaps this failure to produce pure immortal Sidhelien is
the result of some sort of curse -- perhaps *this* is how the human gods
defeated the elves before Deismaar? It would make the hatred stronger,
though -- the Gheallie Sidhe should have near-universal membership in that
case.

> That`s quite benign really. (Sort of Vampiric too)

Hmm, yes. Strange and dangerous immortal superhumans who turn people into
beings like themselves to be their slaves. Good point. Actually, one of
the most elflike characters I ever encountered in a fantasy novel is
technically an undead human -- Gerald Tarrant of C.S. Friedman`s Coldfire
Trilogy, especially in the first book, "Black Sun Rising", reminds me
powerfully of a Cerilian Sidhe, particularly Rhoubhe Manslayer.

> The Tolkien orcs are either twisted elves or failed attempts to breed
> elves -- now they should be able to inter-breed (hee hee).

Ick ick ick! The first part I know, but the second is one I have vowed
never to allow in any of my games.

> Did you catch the interesting way that the birth/reproduction/
> whatever-it-was of the Urak-Hai and Olog-Hai (Sarumans creations -
> spelling is probably incorrect) were portrayed in Fellowship of the
> Ring movie?

Yes, born from slime in a pit, with no parent visible. If I were to adapt
this to BR, I`d literally have half-elves grow on trees. =) (Spelling is
correct except for Uruk, btw; but I believe the consensus is that those
names apply most properly to *Sauron*`s improved orcs and trolls, though
that is a debate for another list. ;)

Ryan Caveney

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Birthright-L

09-25-2002, 11:42 PM

On Tue, 24 Sep 2002, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> This is very interesting. One such wizard is Torele Anviras of Talinie.

Yes! That`s the name I was groping for!

> Well in Torele`s case, the elves seemed to get somthing pretty clear.

Indeed! My comment was "in general, why would they do this?" In this
situation, you rightly point out the answer is obvious.

> As far as the printed material (any IMC as
> well) Torele Anviras has the highest bloodline as well.

I had missed that... I shall have to reread that one.

> Its too good not to use in some form. Many thanks.

You`re quite welcome. Use in good health. =)

Ryan Caveney

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geeman

09-26-2002, 08:47 AM

At 06:13 PM 9/25/2002 -0400, Ryan Caveney wrote:

> > Did you catch the interesting way that the birth/reproduction/
> > whatever-it-was of the Urak-Hai and Olog-Hai (Sarumans creations -
> > spelling is probably incorrect) were portrayed in Fellowship of the
> > Ring movie?
>
>Yes, born from slime in a pit, with no parent visible.

Well, they emerged from pit, but that doesn`t mean they were born
there. They might have started out as normal orcs (and had "normal" orcish
parents) but then S stuck them down into a pit, covered them with a rubber
sheet and slime and then subjected them to whatever he had devised to grow
them bigger, stronger, give them dreds and deeper voices. I`d guess that
would be a combination of whatever the Tolkien equivalent of testosterone
might be and a low fiber diet. The "birth" scene could have just been the
completion of them being transformed.

Gary

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Birthright-L

09-26-2002, 12:50 PM

On Tue, 24 Sep 2002, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>
>
> > There are a couple of ostensibly human wizards in Anuire and
> > Khinasi (whose names escape me at the moment) who are rumored
>
> This is very interesting. One such wizard is Torele Anviras of Talinie.

The other I had in mind is Adara bint Reshoud, a leader of the resistance
to the Red Kings` control of Aftane. The PS Ariya has a half-page
description of her, which reads in part, "Adara is much older than she
looks. Many know that she was born into a powerful Shoufal family, and
that she spent years studying elven magic in the Sielwode. Adara has
revealed little beyond that, but she seems sincere in her hatred of the
Red Kings."

Sielwode is significantly more anti-human than Tuarhievel where Torele
went, so something about Adara must make her extraordinarily trustworthy
for a human -- such as not actually being a human anymore, which would
also explain her apparent youth and reluctance to talk about her past
(though of course there are many other reasons for such things, at least
it passes a consistency check.)

Ryan Caveney

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kgauck

09-26-2002, 02:45 PM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>
Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 7:34 AM

> The other I had in mind is Adara bint Reshoud, a leader of the resistance
> to the Red Kings` control of Aftane.

Having watched the discussion of the past week or so. Peter asked, "What if
immortality is related to the Sidhelien life-style?" Ryan replied that he
saw, "not so much "lifestyle" as it is magical biology." So I have begun to
wonder about this. Not so much for elements of the sidhe or the half-elf
template, but the effect on mebhaighl.

And so I wonder if the sidhe didn`t initially respond to human arrival with
a hope of just converting the humans into half-elves. As time went on the
humans appeared to be too many, not particularly interested in such a
conversion, and utimatly destroyed the sylvan forests. After a sidhe moment
to reconsider, some of them adopted the opposite approach of the gheallie
sidhe. They decided to pick specific humans of power and promise and apply
the mystical processes to them. This hope that humans can ultimatly be
converted to a sidhelien life-style and even better a half-elf existance
remains. The elves have taken the long view.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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Birthright-L

09-26-2002, 10:06 PM

On Thu, 26 Sep 2002, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> They decided to pick specific humans of power and promise and apply
> the mystical processes to them. This hope that humans can ultimatly
> be converted to a sidhelien life-style and even better a half-elf
> existance remains. The elves have taken the long view.

Very nice! If you can`t beat `em, make `em join you. I like it a lot.

Ryan Caveney

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Birthright-L

09-27-2002, 11:31 AM

On Mon, 23 Sep 2002, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:
<< *snip*
Three: Half-elves are the offspring of an elf and a human, and they are
fertile just as their parents are. Now we do need to worry about people
as mixed as Arwen Undomiel (reading the genealogies carefully, she is
technically 25/32nds elf (mixing four distinct kindreds of the same, mind
you), 5/16ths human and 1/32nd Maia, being descended from every single
interspecies mating in First Age history). How shall we represent them in
game terms? Three categories, as the present system uses, is not a bad
first approximation. The trouble comes when drawing the lines. 0-24%,
25-75% and 76-100% would be just fine if all characteristics were
continuous and finite: you just average the parents on every trait you can
imagine, and then apply a small random factor for variety.
Unfortunately, in BR we have two binary traits: immortality and wizardry.
What is the normal lifespan of a half-elf? The average of infinity and
anything is still infinity. However, I feel that human blood should be
weak and corrupting from the Sidhelien POV, so IMO any human ancestry at
all makes a person at most a half-elf. OTOH, it is said that one needs a
bloodline or "elven blood" to be able to practice wizardry. How much is
enough? To take LoTR again, when in the recent movie version Aragorn
speaks of having "the same blood" as Isildur, he is being extremely
poetic, as over 3000 years intervene, and perusal of the king lists makes
the difference about 35 generations. Should that make him a half-elf in
D&D terms? (Certainly it made him a man far above normal men, as at the
start of the book he is already 87 years old, and lives to be 210!) If
so, then half of Cerilia would be populated by such "half"-elves, all
capable of full wizard magic. I think if one were to apply this sort of
model to BR, the proper fractions would be to place those from at least
1/8 elf to anything less than completely elf into the middle category, for
simplicity generally known as "half"-elves. They are not a race apart,
but for game mechanical purposes it is generally more convenient to model
them as if they were (for example, since no bonus or penalty is bigger
than +/-2, there`s no point in more categorization than 0,+/-1,+/-2).
*snip* >>

Way too complicated for me. I use the following:

elf + human = half-elf
half-elf + half-elf = half-elf
elf + elf = elf
elf + half-elf = elf
human + human = human
half-elf + human = human

Presto.

- the Falcon

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Ariadne

09-27-2002, 12:44 PM

Originally posted by Birthright-L (The falcon)

elf + human = half-elf
half-elf + half-elf = half-elf
elf + elf = elf
elf + half-elf = elf
human + human = human
half-elf + human = human
O.K., but an elf + half-elf is still a half-elf. He might have more elven than human blood in his veins (and may be, he lives longer than his half-elf parent), but he is no complete elf then. To be actually an elf, he must have two elven parents...

Birthright-L

09-27-2002, 02:20 PM

<< O.K., but an elf + half-elf is still a half-elf. He might have more elven
than human blood in his veins (and may be, he lives longer than his half-elf
parent), but he is no complete elf then. To be actually an elf, he must have
two elven parents...
>>

Not to me. To me, elf + half-elf = elf. Just like to me, human + half-elf =
human. If elf/human/half-elf + half-elf = half-elf, then anything a half-elf
can reproduce with would result in more half-elves, which is not what I
want. I want to keep the number of half-elves down, so like I said before:

half-elf + half-elf = half-elf
half-elf + elf = elf
half-elf + human = human

The way I see it, half-elf heritage is always less dominant than pure elven
or human heritage. You can also see it like this, presuming elf, humans and
half-elves can only interbreed with eachother and not with any other races:

elf + ? = elf / half-elf
half-elf + ? = half-elf / elf / human
human + ? = human / half-elf

Same result, different approach.

- the Falcon

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Birthright-L

09-27-2002, 06:13 PM

On Fri, 27 Sep 2002, Ariadne wrote:
> O.K., but an elf + half-elf is still a half-elf. He might have more
> elven than human blood in his veins (and may be, he lives longer than
> his half-elf parent), but he is no complete elf then. To be actually
> an elf, he must have two elven parents...

Which just proves that the elves are evil, racist sum`biches, and the
Gheallie Sidhe is the root of all evil...

Oops, sorry, wrong flame war. :)
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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Eosin the Red

09-27-2002, 06:13 PM

Actually, you get into some genetics questions here. It could be that elvish
genes are expressed in an incomplete dominance type of way. Tolkien himself
alluded to this with his Highmen concept. With this theory in place you
would need to map out the elvish genome and decide which were recessive,
dominant and incomplete dominance. Some specific traits might be found on
multiple loci and would require a bit more thought. Elvish ears and the
almond eyes for example seem to show up even with diminishingly small
percentage of elvish blood. We know human eyes have 8 loci to determine
there shape and color - it is easy to assume at this point that while human
eye traits are incomplete dominance on all loci, the elves would express
dominance on perhaps two or three. The real question would be the genetics
of magic & longevity. I suggest that you tie these into telomere function.
Rather than have a diminishing return with cell division, the elves have a
stable telomere count. This stability would not carry across to the humans
but would result in greater conservation - this could be correlated out
pretty easily into a magic and longevity strength with some genetic samples
of the parents.

: )

Eosin the Red

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ariadne" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 7:44 AM
Subject: Re: Question... [2#958]

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=958
>
> Ariadne wrote:
>
Originally posted by Birthright-L (The falcon)
>
> elf + human = half-elf
> half-elf + half-elf = half-elf
> elf + elf = elf
> elf + half-elf = elf
> human + human = human
> half-elf + human = human
> O.K., but an elf + half-elf is still a half-elf. He might have more elven
than human blood in his veins (and may be, he lives longer than his half-elf
parent), but he is no complete elf then. To be actually an elf, he must have
two elven parents...
>
>
>
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Birthright-L

09-27-2002, 06:44 PM

Falcon wrote:

> elf + human = half-elf
> half-elf + half-elf = half-elf
> elf + elf = elf
> elf + half-elf = elf
> human + human = human
> half-elf + human = human

Ariadne replied:

> O.K., but an elf + half-elf is still a half-elf. He might have more
> elven than human blood in his veins (and may be, he lives longer than
> his half-elf parent), but he is no complete elf then. To be actually
> an elf, he must have two elven parents...

These are just two different choices of the exact percentage numbers in
the long paragraph of mine Falcon quoted in his message. He picks what is
perhaps the simplest option: { [0,25), [25,75], (75,100] }. Notation: the
numbers are percentages of elven blood, and the end markers being the
mathematical standard: `)` indicating an open end (category "human"
requires strictly less than 25% elven blood) and `]` a closed one
(category "half-elf" requires greater than or equal to 25% elven blood and
less than or equal to 75% elven blood) -- math is so much more compact. =)

Ariadne`s message states the belief that the category "elf" should be
simply [100]: anything less than full means you don`t qualify. When
literal immortality is on the line, this is the option I prefer as well.
If we make the minimum change from Falcon`s suggestion, we need change
only one of his six equations (the one Ariadne mentions specifically), and
express the intervals as the set { [0,25), [25,100), [100] }.

Any three disjoint sets whose union is the interval [0,100] will do
(though disconnected ones would be very strange indeed); the particular
choice is a matter of personal preference.

Ryan Caveney

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Birthright-L

09-27-2002, 06:59 PM

On Fri, 27 Sep 2002, Eosin the Red wrote:

> With this theory in place you would need to map out the elvish genome
> and decide which were recessive, dominant and incomplete dominance.
> Some specific traits might be found on multiple loci and would require
> a bit more thought.

Now that`s what I like to hear! It`s good to have another fantasy
scientist around. =) If you ever get bored enough to really do this,
I`d *love* to see it.

> The real question would be the genetics of magic & longevity. I
> suggest that you tie these into telomere function. Rather than have a
> diminishing return with cell division, the elves have a stable
> telomere count.

This sort of thing is one of the main drivers for my "elves eat magic"
theory. If they are to be eternally youthful, their cellular repair and
error-checking processes must be much more effective than human ones, and
therefore presumably require much more energy.

Ryan Caveney

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Birthright-L

09-27-2002, 09:42 PM

On Wed, 25 Sep 2002, Lee Hanna wrote:

> For the sake of simplicity, I just use the PH`s age tables, using the "elf"
> listing for half-elf.

Ah, but which PH? 2nd and 3rd editions use 350 as the elf max (which
really bothers me in all game worlds -- much too short!), but 1st ed has
1000-2000, depending on subrace (and 325 for half-elves). I suppose you
mean the 350 years figure, which fits roughly with John Machin`s
suggestion of making them max out at about five times the human ceiling.

Ryan Caveney

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Trithemius

09-28-2002, 07:13 AM

Ryan Caveney
> Ah, but which PH? 2nd and 3rd editions use 350 as the elf
> max (which really bothers me in all game worlds -- much too
> short!), but 1st ed has 1000-2000, depending on subrace (and
> 325 for half-elves). I suppose you mean the 350 years
> figure, which fits roughly with John Machin`s suggestion of
> making them max out at about five times the human ceiling.

In most "traditional" D&D BR campaigns these sorts of answers never
really had questions, if you know what I mean.

To clarify: Ageing never really came up as a majotr motif when we were
playing BR using (A)D&D rules. However when I adapted Ars Magica this
changed rapidly. Ageing is highly important in ArM (where characters can
often die from disability brought on by age). The numbers and the
principle of flexibility I mentioned earlier arose from the needs of
using this sort of system to portray sidhe and half-sidhe. I personally
consider half-sidhe longevity to be dependent upon the individual`s
outlook and their lifestyle. Living a more "human" existence will mean
tha a half-sidhe has a somewhat shorter lifespan, whereas living a
"sidhe" lifestyle could mean that the half-sidhe may last millenia
before succumbing to age, if at all.

The role of genetics in this is, I freely admit, utterly nonexistent :)

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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Trithemius

09-28-2002, 07:13 AM

Ryan:
> Now that`s what I like to hear! It`s good to have another
> fantasy scientist around. =) If you ever get bored enough to
> really do this, I`d *love* to see it.

Noooooooooooooooooooo!
They are multiplying!

> This sort of thing is one of the main drivers for my "elves
> eat magic" theory. If they are to be eternally youthful,
> their cellular repair and error-checking processes must be
> much more effective than human ones, and therefore presumably
> require much more energy.

Argh!

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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Ariadne

09-28-2002, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by Ryan Caveney

Ariadne`s message states the belief that the category "elf" should be simply [100]: anything less than full means you don`t qualify. When literal immortality is on the line, this is the option I prefer as well. If we make the minimum change from Falcon`s suggestion, we need change only one of his six equations (the one Ariadne mentions specifically), and express the intervals as the set { [0,25), [25,100), [100] }.
Err... and in English? :)

Fun to the side. So you would specify any half-elf with greater than 75% of elven blood as an elf. Good so far, but this elf still wouldn't be immortal, because he still has "too much" human blood in his veins...

Birthright-L

10-01-2002, 11:37 AM

On Sat, 28 Sep 2002, Ariadne wrote:

> Err... and in English? :)

I was trying simply to translate the two suggestions (yours and Falcon`s)
into my notation in order to demonstrate how to use it and show how much
more concise it is than using English (or any other human language) to
express an idea that is inherently mathematical. However, further
consideration shows, contrary to my earlier post, that Falcon`s method
cannot actually be expressed in the notation I was using due to the
"roundoff error" in his equations.

If we start with a population of "pure elves" (100% elven blood) and "pure
humans" (0% elven blood), using Falcon`s equations, we can clearly make
"pure half-elves" with 50% elven blood, but in the next generation, the
75%ers are considered "elves" and the 25%ers "humans". Continually
rebreeding these lines with "pure half-elves" (50%ers) means that in the
limit, "elves" can be found with any elven blood fraction above 50%,
"humans" with any elven blood fraction below 50%, and "half-elves" with
any elven blood fraction from 25% to 75% (inclusive). Thus, in his
method, simple percentage of elven blood is not enough to define category
membership, which to me seems like a bug. It is indeed easy to use (you
need only know the classifications of the parents, and ignore all previous
generations), but it makes the result illogical to me.

Note also that my confusion doesn`t mean my mathematical methods are
useless -- quite the opposite, in fact. I would never have realized why
Falcon`s method bothered me without working out the numbers, and
discovering that it couldn`t be expressed in the disjoint interval form,
which characterizes all elf/half-elf/human categorizations that appeal to
my sense of logic.

> So you would specify any half-elf with greater than
> 75% of elven blood as an elf.

No, actually. In the part you quoted, I said, "Ariadne... states...
anything less than full means you don`t qualify. ...this is the option I
prefer as well." I think any taint of human blood means you are not truly
Sidhelien. It is true that the first numbers I gave in Case 3 of my first
post in this thread a week ago do say that, but a few sentences later I
went on to say I didn`t think those numbers were appropriate to
Birthright: "However, I feel that human blood should be weak and
corrupting from the Sidhelien POV, so IMO any human ancestry at all makes
a person at most a half-elf."

What I was trying to say is that Falcon`s method, which he likes because
it seems easy to him, is no easier than a version of his method which
accepts your ideas about qualifications for the status of "full elf".
I tried to say this in as little detail as possible, because I don`t
actually know where you would draw the line between half-elf and human;
while we`re on the topic, where would you? Here are the equations Falcon
originally posted, and two alternate versions of them that satisfy your
constraint on elfhood (where e = elf, he = half-elf, and h = human):

Mixture Falcon A B
e + e = e e e
e + he = e he he
e + h = he he he
he + he = he he he
he + h = h h he
h + h = h h h

There is no disagreement on the three homogeneous combinations (same +
same = same), nor on elf + human = half-elf. The differences lie in how
broadly one wishes to define the category "half-elf". A and B both follow
your (and my) definition of elf, with B representing a slighly greater
change from Falcon`s original suggestion.

IMC, I basically use case B, except that I set e + h = N/A, because I have
a distinctly nonstandard concept of "half-elf" as yet a third, separate
race, and I have other (cultural) mechanisms in place to keep half-elves
from becoming too numerous -- which is Falcon`s fear of making the
half-elf category too all-inclusive. Note that although B is expressed by
equations that look similar to ones we know don`t generate an interval
scale, it actually is one, namely {[0],(0,100),[100]}. Case A is a bit
strange in that "humans" can be found with any elven blood fraction below
100%, but it seems like the operationally simplest way to calculate that
allows you to ignore the details of ancestry, makes only pure elves count
as full elves, and does something to discourage both species being
completely replaced by half-elves (which B encourages).

> Good so far, but this elf still wouldn`t be immortal, because he still
> has "too much" human blood in his veins...

I agree with you, but Falcon doesn`t. Maybe he doesn`t think elves are
immortal, either?

In a setting where elves weren`t immortal, I probably would choose what
you thought I had, namely "elf" = strictly greater than 75% pure elven
blood -- but this is Birthright, and Birthright is special. =)

Ryan Caveney

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Ariadne

10-01-2002, 01:32 PM

As I have heard, some rules exist in this manner already. These say, that elven blood always dominates in a mixture. This would mean, that he +h= he and he +he= e. (I don't like them, I fear, but they needn't to be followed).

Originally posted by Ryan Caveney

Here are the equations Falcon originally posted, and two alternate versions of them that satisfy your constraint on elfhood (where e = elf, he = half-elf, and h = human):

Mixture Falcon A B
e + e = e e e
e + he = e he he
e + h = he he he
he + he = he he he
he + h = h h he
h + h = h h h
If we see this from the "true" biological side, we must include Mendel's rules. These would be:

he + he (50% e each) = 25% h, 50% he and 25% e
e + he (50% e) = 75% e and 25% he
e + he (75% e) = 87,5% e and 12,5% he
e + he (25% e) = 62,5% e and 37,5% he
e + h = he (always 50%/50%)
h + he (50% h) = 75% h and 25% he
h + he (75% h) = 87,5% h and 12,5% he
h + he (25% h) = 62,5% h and 37,5% he and so on.

But of cause we're in a roleplay and so we needn't to be this perfect, it would be only one view of may be rules...

Birthright-L

10-02-2002, 11:30 AM

<< I agree with you, but Falcon doesn`t. Maybe he doesn`t think elves are
immortal, either?
>>

That was a just lucky guess, right? I really can`t believe that you`d
actually remember that I ever said that. :)

Anyhow: yeah, I don`t think they are immortal. They`re just ever-youthful.
They still die when they`re time is up. (That`s the short version,
at least; the long version can be found somewhere in the archives.) Besides,
your elves are not immortal either: they can and do die, too.

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Ariadne

10-02-2002, 12:58 PM

Err... whoops, I've seen a mistake in my own theory. :) With Mendel's theory only exist true elves, half elves and humans. So two half elvs (always 50/50, no other exist) who have 4 children will have statistically: One "true" elven child (100% e), two "true" half elven child (50/50) and one "true" human child (100% h).

Originally posted by Birthright-L (Falcon)

Besides, your elves are not immortal either: they can and do die, too.
That's right. Elves are natural immortal, what means that they don't age naturally and can't die (and aren't otherwise affected) by aging attacks. They can still be slayed by physical combat, magic or by other force.

Birthright-L

10-04-2002, 04:09 PM

On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Ariadne wrote:

> Err... whoops, I`ve seen a mistake in my own theory. :) With
> Mendel`s theory only exist true elves, half elves and humans. So two
> half elves (always 50/50, no other exist) who have 4 children will
> have statistically: One "true" elven child (100% e), two "true" half
> elven child (50/50) and one "true" human child (100% h).

If elves and humans differ on only one chromosome and there is no
"crossing-over", yes. It doesn`t seem likely, but it would make for a
fascinatingly different kind of racial inheritance model. I think a
rather nice campaign world could be designed around it, but I don`t think
it works well for Birthright -- I want humans and Sidhelien to be much
farther apart than that. In fact, I`d have to say that for BR, my
preferred choice -- if elf-human crossbreeding is even possible -- is for
the offspring to be sterile.

> Falcon wrote:
> > Besides, your elves are not immortal either: they can and do die, too.
>
> That`s right. Elves are natural immortal, what means that they
> don`t age naturally and can`t die (and aren`t otherwise affected) by
> aging attacks. They can still be slayed by physical combat, magic or
> by other force.

Quite. But it is so much shorter just to write the one word, and in this
context I think most people understand the variant usage, in the sense of
"will live forever barring violence". My elves are also nearly immune to
disease and very resistant to poison, as I think these things are very
similar to immune to age. (I remain particularly amused by a comic book
in which the elven protagonist becomes physically addicted to a plant
which is deadly poison to all the other species...)

Then there is the other issue: what if bodily death isn`t the end? There
is some discussion among Tolkien scholars on the topic of whether his
elves rembodied (that is, not as random as "reincarnated" is usually taken
to mean, but rather return as themselves) -- for example, whether the
Glorfindel who was slain by a Balrog in Gondolin in the First Age was in
fact the same Glorfindel who rode to Frodo`s defense at the Ford of
Bruinen, just back again somehow. If you can kill their bodies, but after
some time they can form a new one, then perhaps they really are "fully"
immortal. I`m not sure how well this works in BR -- it goes against some
of the hatred the elves have for the humans, but to me it does help
explain why the elves haven`t yet exterminated the humans: since I think
they could if they really wanted to, it follows to me that they don`t
really want to as much as some of the published materials would have us
believe.

Ryan Caveney

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Ariadne

10-07-2002, 02:13 PM

[i]Originally posted by Birthright-L (Ryan Caveney)[i]

If elves and humans differ on only one chromosome and there is no "crossing-over", yes. It doesn`t seem likely, but it would make for a fascinatingly different kind of racial inheritance model. I think a rather nice campaign world could be designed around it, but I don`t think it works well for Birthright --
I only said: If we see the side... I think too, it wouldn't work in Cerlia, because we perhaps would create steriles. But half-elves are as fertile as there parents are, so it must function different from this, you are right. IMO elves are very magical creatures, that's why this cross-over exists (and functions).

ConjurerDragon

10-07-2002, 02:46 PM

Hello!
Or even better re-incarnation: Sidhelien re-incarnate as trees :-)
Now THAT´s a reason for the Gheallie Sidhe...

Take for example the book "Speaker for the Dead" (yes, it´s Science
Fiction) where the alien race is re-incarnated as protecting and
benevolent trees if their heart is planted into the earth - which is a
honour not bestowed upon every of their race.

Unfortunately they wanted to honour one human in the same way in the
book ;-)
bye
Michael Romes
**********************

Ryan B. Caveney wrote:

>On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Ariadne wrote:
>
>> Err... whoops, I`ve seen a mistake in my own theory. :) With
>>Mendel`s theory only exist true elves, half elves and humans. So two
>>half elves (always 50/50, no other exist) who have 4 children will
>>have statistically: One "true" elven child (100% e), two "true" half
>>elven child (50/50) and one "true" human child (100% h).
>>
>
>If elves and humans differ on only one chromosome and there is no
>"crossing-over", yes. It doesn`t seem likely, but it would make for a
>fascinatingly different kind of racial inheritance model. I think a
>rather nice campaign world could be designed around it, but I don`t think
>it works well for Birthright -- I want humans and Sidhelien to be much
>farther apart than that. In fact, I`d have to say that for BR, my
>preferred choice -- if elf-human crossbreeding is even possible -- is for
>the offspring to be sterile.
>
>>Falcon wrote:
>>
>>>Besides, your elves are not immortal either: they can and do die, too.
>>>
>>That`s right. Elves are natural immortal, what means that they
>>don`t age naturally and can`t die (and aren`t otherwise affected) by
>>aging attacks. They can still be slayed by physical combat, magic or
>>by other force.
>>
>
>Quite. But it is so much shorter just to write the one word, and in this
>context I think most people understand the variant usage, in the sense of
>"will live forever barring violence". My elves are also nearly immune to
>disease and very resistant to poison, as I think these things are very
>similar to immune to age. (I remain particularly amused by a comic book
>in which the elven protagonist becomes physically addicted to a plant
>which is deadly poison to all the other species...)
>
>Then there is the other issue: what if bodily death isn`t the end? There
>is some discussion among Tolkien scholars on the topic of whether his
>elves rembodied (that is, not as random as "reincarnated" is usually taken
>to mean, but rather return as themselves) -- for example, whether the
>Glorfindel who was slain by a Balrog in Gondolin in the First Age was in
>fact the same Glorfindel who rode to Frodo`s defense at the Ford of
>Bruinen, just back again somehow. If you can kill their bodies, but after
>some time they can form a new one, then perhaps they really are "fully"
>immortal. I`m not sure how well this works in BR -- it goes against some
>of the hatred the elves have for the humans, but to me it does help
>explain why the elves haven`t yet exterminated the humans: since I think
>they could if they really wanted to, it follows to me that they don`t
>really want to as much as some of the published materials would have us
>believe.
>
>
>Ryan Caveney
>
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