Vosgaard

[Rey]

Discussion thread for Vosgaard (http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Vosgaard). If you would like to add a comment, click the Post Reply button.

[Rey]

There are couple of things about Vosgaard that would need some attention.

(First) Vosgaard is the only region of Cerilia divided into PC realms, NPC realms, Feral lands and Awnshegh realms, while other regions have some geographical meaning. I was wondering if the similar thing could be arranged for Vosgaard.
Proposal:

a) Savage North or Feral Lands (like the name says): the Icemarch, the Gnoll Fells, the Battle Fens, the Mistmoor and Tuar Annwn.
b) The Orlenaskyy Lands (realms oriented around basic Orlenaskyy Mountains): Lutkhovsky, Melyy, The Sword Rust Tribes and Velenoye.
c) Western Spearlands (because they jab like a spear into Brecht lands, lol): Hjorig, Rzhlev and Molochev.
d) Eastern Reach: Yeninskiy, Zoloskaya, The Raven's realm and Manticore's domain.
e) (Central) Spinelands (being the spine of Vosgaard): Rovninodensk, Kal Kalathor, Kozlovnyy and Cwmb Bheinn.

(second) Kozlovnyy is a three-century old Vos realm that rests on the remains of overrun, former Khinasi Medec, but it's a Vos ruled realm. I agree with Kenneth for moving this one from Khinasi to Vosgaard, and wonder if the similar rule could be applied to Rzhlev (I've already included Rzhlev in the above list)? Also about Hjorig, it's a Rjurik-community realm but it's definitively cut off the main Rjurik region, unlike Rzhlev and Kozlovnyy.
The same destiny has befallen Vos realm of Pipryet which war overtaken by the Magian and is a part of Khinasi region.

(third) The definition of nona and torva Vos would have to go on separate page(s).

(fourth) The actual domains of the Raven, or the Manticore, or the Gnoll Fells need a redirection from pages Raven's Realm, Manticore's Domain, or Gnoll Fells, i.e. without the article.

[kgauck]

I would very much like to see Vosgaard divided up like the rest of Cerilia, into regions. Those proposed look good.

I didn't so much move Kozlovnyy from Khinasi to Vosgaard as I listed it both places. Although it seems to be mis-spelled on the Khinasi page. Rzhlev should be in both Brectur and Vosgaard so that people can find it regardless of whether they know it was in HofGB or whether they know its a Vos realm. Hjorig seems to be a little Rjurik, a little Vos, and a little Brecht. I added Hjorig to the Rjurik listing, but invented a new group, "other Rjurik realms" which is for Hjorig and the Thaele colonies. Perhaps a new term like "the outlands" would be better. In general, I'd put a realm where ever I think people will look for it.

Nona and torva should have seperate pages and they probabaly deserve to be article length if someone feels like putting on their analytical hat and explaining this all. Vosgaard was a hurried project, and this aspect seems very glossed over. Cerilia is full of contact zones where cultures meet and share influence, and unlike many fantasy realms, it doesn't happen cleanly. There is a great deal of interplay of cultures, which is very realistic and interesting. So something incomplete like the description of nona and torva remains a disappointment. How does a culture which embraces Belinik and Kriesha loose confidence in itself and decided that the grass is greener and abandon the old ways? The example of Peter the Great offers some examples, but that was one man and the result was a French speaking nobility in a very western context ruling over a decidedly backwards country. Potemkin village, says it all. This is a culture loosing confidence and people clearly aware that the neighboring Khinasi and Brecht are something altogether different, and wanting it. Struggles in the Orthodox Church between the old believers and the new (late 17th century) might offer some insights here. Its potentially a very rich and interesting situation which hasn't been developed.

In part 4, some of the awnie domains you're referring to are little more place holders.

[Rey]

OK, let's wait and see what others have to say.

In the meantime, just a little info on the subject, as far as wiki is concerned. I'm working on Vosgaard following this routine: search the TotHW for useful data (and correct the conflicting ones, TotHW is full of them) and put it on the wiki, create important and necessary pages (like nona and torva, for example), going back to the roots of Vos settling the Vosgaard, enrich the historical data and then elaborate through domains, descriptions, characters, holdings and so on. The target is to make Vosgaard a usable region for a campaign, resulting in PSs of player realms.

[cccpxepoj]

I would very much like to see Vosgaard divided up like the rest of Cerilia, into regions. Those proposed look good.
As we all :D


The example of Peter the Great offers some examples, but that was one man and the result was a French speaking nobility in a very western context ruling over a decidedly backwards country.
I would not agree to that, the changes brought by the Peter the Great where much bigger, he took backward country and turned it in the powerful state. Course the life of common people was still hard, but he made Russia part of Europe not Asia. Imperial Russia was not so backwater as later Soviet regime wanted to show.

This is a culture loosing confidence and people clearly aware that the neighboring Khinasi and Brecht are something altogether different, and wanting it.
As many other cultures on Cerilia are facing two paths, Rjuric are choosing between nomadic or settled way of life, elf between revenge and forgiving...
I am not sure can i describe you this but i am living in a country that is facing similar problem, right now political opinion is divided between two currents, one stream towards "western" countries(EU, USA..) and other is streaming to the self isolation and small cooperation with the "eastern"(China, Russia..) countries. The discord has drained country and its resources, the economy is weak, reputation is ruined, and there is constant feuding between politicians.
Now imagine all that in more medieval, brutal and violent Vos fashion and you have the source of Nona vs. Torva conflict.
As i already said to Ray i am eager to help in Vosgaard project, just when i finish exams ( damned college always bothering me in my birthright gaming:D)
and as soon as figure out how to post something on wiki.

[kgauck]

I would not agree to that, the changes brought by the Peter the Great where much bigger, he took backward country and turned it in the powerful state. Course the life of common people was still hard, but he made Russia part of Europe not Asia. Imperial Russia was not so backwater as later Soviet regime wanted to show.

My point was not that Peter was not Great, but that its easy to overstate the achievement. Peter did not re-create Western Europe in Russia despite a herculean effort. Cultures don't turn on a dime.

Also the people under-rated by the Soviets were the 19th century Czars, who really did some good work modernizing Russia in a world where industrialization kept the bar in motion. The Soviets needed to criticize the later Czars not only for ideological reasons, but also because the Russian Revolution, Civil War, the New Economic Policy, and the Purges set Russia back 20 or more years. The New Economic Policy and the Five Year Plans were a mess.


As many other cultures on Cerilia are facing two paths, Rjuric are choosing between nomadic or settled way of life, elf between revenge and forgiving...

My academic area is Habsburg Austria. So I would also point to the diving line created by Austria and Ottoman Turkey. Much of the division in the former Yugoslavia is a consequence of the slow movement of this line south.

From a Vos point of view, the barbaric East is Belinik and Kriesha. There is a modern west, in the Brecht, who can serve a nice analog to the Germans, Dutch, English, and Swedes who work nicely into Peter's modernization. The Khinasi serve as an alternate modern, based on a conjectured Ottoman influence on Russia c. the 16th century when Turkey was well organized.

Of course there should also be a strong overlay of Sera and Avani respectively.

[cccpxepoj]

Peter did not re-create Western Europe in Russia.
No he didn't, he created Russian Russia, not Western European not Central Asian, just unique as any other culture is.Actions and reforms of later Czars where built upon a foundation he build.

My academic area is Habsburg Austria. So I would also point to the diving line created by Austria and Ottoman Turkey. Much of the division in the former Yugoslavia is a consequence of the slow movement of this line south.
i am planing my future master and PHD study on that area too. And you are right about that division( as i am living north of Danube river in former Austrian part of country), but as in many cases that is not the whole story.


the barbaric East is Belinik and Kriesha. There is a modern west, in the Brecht, who can serve a nice analog to the Germans, Dutch, English, and Swedes who work nicely into Peter's modernization. The Khinasi serve as an alternate modern, based on a conjectured Ottoman influence on Russia c. the 16th century when Turkey was well organized.
I hope it is just a metaphor, as a faithful of Eastern Orthodox Christian Church i was slightly insulted, but don't worry be happy.
But again yes, the Brecht and their colonist will certainly improve economy and bring technological progress, and the Khinasi will influence them with culture and understanding of magic.

Of course there should also be a strong overlay of Sera and Avani respectively.
There is some hidden cults of Avani in Vosgaard, and some Sera's cults will rise, but in my opinion most of the nona Vos will turn back to the teachings of Ruornil and some will reform the teachings of Belinik and Kriesha, as they once did in the time of Carevic Basil. and this talk is only if the nona faction eventually win.

But we strayed from the topic, point is Vos are not Russians, as it was many times highlighted on this site, they just resemble the Russians and other Slavs with they names and names of their provinces.
I will just comment Proliv province, in Ust Atka, Proliv in my language means looseness of the bowels.

[kgauck]

No he didn't, he created Russian Russia, not Western European not Central Asian, just unique as any other culture is.Actions and reforms of later Czars where built upon a foundation he build.

This misses the point. Cultures are rich complexes of various elements. I've only be considering what the gaming world would call "tech level". How modern is Russia. When I said he didn't re-create Western Europe in Russia I am referring to the shipyards, mines, foundries, and scientific academies Peter visited in his tour to the West. Peter wanted a modern Russia, but his accomplishment was not to modernize Russia, but to open the door to modernity and push Russia through it, kicking and screaming.


i am planing my future master and PHD study on that area too. And you are right about that division (as i am living north of Danube river in former Austrian part of country), but as in many cases that is not the whole story.

A game forum isn't really the place for the whole story. In terms of making a historical argument, its the place to make analogies that will be useful for gaming.


I hope it is just a metaphor, as a faithful of Eastern Orthodox Christian Church i was slightly insulted, but don't worry be happy. But again yes, the Brecht and their colonist will certainly improve economy and bring technological progress, and the Khinasi will influence them with culture and understanding of magic.

The metaphor referred to the unsettled peoples of Central Asia, Turkic and Mongolian speaking horsemen who dominated Russia during the era of the Golden Horde. It is this past that Peter was attempting to overcome. This is the "east" that the Russians wanted to escape and the cities, like Antwerp that Peter saw, that he wanted to recreate with St Petersburg and some of his other Baltic construction.


But we strayed from the topic, point is Vos are not Russians, as it was many times highlighted on this site, they just resemble the Russians and other Slavs with they names and names of their provinces.

Its more than that. We've got images inspired by early Russian art and archeology, washed over with a fantasy brush. Without one or more base cultures (I prefer several) we have to use our imagination to fill in the gaps.

For instance, I have an encyclopedia of mythology. By looking at the chapter on Slavic myths, I can draw on stories and situations that will do quite nicely for the Vos. Its not a one to one situation, but if we don't know the cultural analog(s) then the Vos are a blank slate.

[cccpxepoj]

You are right, this is no place for the historical argument. In my first post i was just trying to compare real life of my country with Vos nona vs torva conflict and hope i helped someone to understand it better.
Images of Vos from different BR. rulebooks remind me of old Conan movies, and they equipment looks more Mongolian then Russian so in many of adventures i tried accentuate on that part of Vos.

[Elton Robb]

You are right, this is no place for the historical argument. In my first post i was just trying to compare real life of my country with Vos nona vs torva conflict and hope i helped someone to understand it better.
Images of Vos from different BR. rulebooks remind me of old Conan movies, and they equipment looks more Mongolian then Russian so in many of adventures i tried accentuate on that part of Vos.

The Vos to me are based on the Huns, really. An Indo-European race that looked a lot like the mongols, yeah. They are just Huns with Russian names and Russian customs. Vos itself could be Hunnic. ;)

[kgauck]

The Huns weren't Indo-European. The language of the Huns was Turkic (related to Turkish and Mongolian). They didn't so much look like Mongols as they were of their ilk.

[kgauck]

You are right, this is no place for the historical argument.

Since you mentioned pursuing a history degree. What the nona/torva conflict looks like to me is the old Gemeinschaft und Gesellschaft business. I spent a good part of my MA work criticizing this mode of analysis. I contend that this approach idealizes a pre-industrial past and interprets the current world of the historian as corrupt, almost dystopian. This was originally a conservative movement, but eventually was embraced more widely.

Historians tend to fall into one of two camps, idealizing the past, or idealizing progress.

Idealizing the past has a rich mythological tradition, and so is not out of place in a fantasy setting. But I find struggles over traditional and progressive ways of life to be artificial, so tend to interpret nona/torva as an ideological struggle between followers of Belinik/Krisha, and Sera or Avani.


they equipment looks more Mongolian then Russian
Good call. There is rich and, for many people, unfamiliar cultural analog to draw on.

[cccpxepoj]

Why just Sera and Avani, there are strong Lirovka( Ruornil ) and Ayairda(Laerme) nona movements in Vosgaard.
Perhaps more appropriate faiths to "new" Vos society are Cuiraicen and Erick, the first replaces the old war priests and second replaces the winter witches.
But if(when) the influence of other faiths is growing in Vosgaard, then the influence of Belinik And Kriesha will rise in awnsheg realms and foreign lands.
Belinik in Anuire( there is already his cult in Mieres and Osoerde) and by smaller rate in other parts of Cerilia, and Kriesha in northern Rjurickland and Brechtur .

[kgauck]

I see only Haelyn, Sera, and Avani as modernizing ideologies. The others may soften the Vos, but they won't offer anything new. Erik and Cuiraecen are just nice versions of what they have now, and Ruornil and Erik will not encourage development and trade.

[cccpxepoj]

I see only Haelyn, Sera, and Avani as modernizing ideologies. The others may soften the Vos, but they won't offer anything new. Erik and Cuiraecen are just nice versions of what they have now, and Ruornil and Erik will not encourage development and trade.
In the world of magic and high fantasy, trade and industry are not only path for advancement.
Erik may teach them how to live with their harsh environment, Cuiraecen has better chance as warrior god to win their hearts.
Laerme can represent culture in the same way the Avani present it and she is a goddess of fire, a very important thing in a frozen north.
Ruornil represent a path to their roots( roots bloody roots !!!:cool:) he brings them magic, culture, literacy, new way how to use their environment, and most of the priests & missionaries would come from Anuire, Brechture and Khinasiland and they would bring their knowledge, culture and other advancements with them.

[AndrewTall]

My thoughts:

Haelyn - historical enemy, but a good 'conquerer god'. Basically a polite version of Belinik. A possible successor but the history suggests otherwise - the Vos didn't fight off the empire for 15 centuries to let Haelyn slip in the back door.

Erik - a natural successor to Kreisha (summer and winter) and quite capable of being warlike and tough - as is often said, mother nature is a bitch so don't expect his druids to be tree-hugging hippies in Vosgaard (or anywhere else for that matter).

Sera - the luck/daring/courage aspect of her portfolio may appeal, the trade may reward those who seek technological improvement and cultural exchange, but she may be too associated with 'weakling' Brecht to gain widespread acceptance.

Avani - Laerme has the fire, Ruornil the wisdom, Avani adds little and again could again be seen as the god of weaklings.

Cuiraecen - even more a 'polite belinik' than Haelyn, and with far less historical baggage.

Eloele - a lot of kriesha's followers might like the sly sneaky Eloele and she is less self-destructive, she could also usurp Sera's luck/trade portfolio in vos areas.

Laerme - life, hope and spirit - if you can't dream/sing/have sex in the long cold nights what can you do? Laerme already has some following, and if the culture turns to a less martial bent she has every opportunity to grow.

Nesirie - too much of a drip for the Vos, if they were more seafaring maybe, but I'd expert seafarers to turn to Erik (produce of the sea), Eloele/Sera (traders) or Cuiraecen (pirates, raiders)

Kreisha - Kreisha is quite capable of mixing Erik and Sera to make the goddess of tough, grab everything-not-on-fire-or-nailed-down style merchanting. Where Belinik would rage, rage, rage against innovation Kriesha would twist it to her advantage or bide her time wiating for the interloper to stumble...

[AndrewTall]

I played with filling out the main page for the Vos with some skimpy realm descriptions. I used a mix of the geographical areas already on the page and the areas mentioned earlier in the thread but found it fairly hard going - Rey, can you have a look and adjust? You're more familiar with the area.

[Rey]

I like it.
A few tips, though.

Dragon Coast sounds better than Eastern Reach. You can then use Western Reach for the equivalent of Brecht Overlook.

Morrinzavod is a name we used for Manticore's domain (although I don't know where iz originates from), Morrins is just a province. I thought the name of the domain was Madrik from Cerilian timeline, but it seems it's only a name of a province, too. Or is it? Cerilian timeline rarely mentions a prominent ruler coming to power in a town or a province.

Also, Sword Rust Tribes and Iron Hand Orogs are two different "realms", not one the same.

Molochev's raiders could hardly reach the Shining Coast, but raiding the upper flow of Tsongya River is more possible.

A few minor spelling mistakes, but that happens always to all of us. All in all, an A for the effort.

[AndrewTall]

I was reaching on the Manticore's domain for a realm name, and figured that Morrins was probably of the only sizable town so could name the realm much like some of the Rjurik realms - Morrinzavod sounds better though.

I knew something was going wrong with the orogs, but was getting too tired to sort it out. Completely missed the Sword Rust lands on the map...

I wonder about Molochev though - the Zhainge river goes all the way down, so unless Kozlovnyy or Aftane stops the ships I can see raiders reaching the coast starting from Baikal or Kurmansk - Innishiere will ignore them, nothing much lives in the Tarvan Waste of the Basilisk's land to stop them, and the Black Spear Tribes are unlikely to respond in time to any passage or be organised enough to patrol the river.

Hmm, I wonder if there is a connection between 4 inches of snow outside my door and thinking about Vosgaard?

[Rey]

It's hard for me to think that the river which is used for trade, almost like a life line for those around it, to be empty of souls and vessels.

I know what you mean, I was out a few hours ago, cleaning my varsk.. I mean, my car. Got some ideas, if I could only force myself to write it down before I forget.

[AndrewTall]

Oh I'd expect masses of trade - lumber, ores, etc south and food and fineries heading north. I wouldn't expect a lot of warships that could stop a shipload of berserk warriors, or much in the way of bridges/chains/dams/etc that could present a physical barriers.

As the sun coast is relatively rich, and too far for serious reprisals, I'd expect that they are a prime target for raiders, Kozlovnyy is both poorer, and far more likely to strike back deterring raids, everyone else is subsistence level, or a trader who would run/bribe their way out of a confrontation.

[Rey]

There could be some interesting skirmishes, yes. Mongols, Arabs and Turks frequently drilled through more than their share of territory, for instance.

Kozlovnyy may not be a threat, but Tarwan bandits, the Basilisk, Black Spear tribes, the wizards of Aftane... hm, don't know. Maybe I'm lacking some reading here.

[Gheal]

Umm... Many of vos toponyms sounds as plain russian words or at least slightly tweaked versions of russian words. But none of them carried humorous meaning. 'Till now.
Morrinzavod (Morrin Zavod) means "Morra's Factory" in Russian. With soft D it means "Morra's Backwater". If you read books of Tuve Jansson, you know who this Morra is. :) In contrast, other version (Madrik) has no meaning in Russian.
I can stand for city of Homeland (Rodina), province of Strait (Proliv) or Nicolas forest (Nikolai). Even Rovnograd can be translated as Plainchester. But if I will run next BR campaign in the future, I wish my players don't laugh when they enter Manticore's domain.
That's just my suggestion. Majority of the people on this board will not have such problem.

[Rey]

I understand you perfectly. Although I don't speak Russian, my language is Slavic so I can still find some meaning in some of the names. I thought at first that Morrinzavod actually did come up somewhere in published books, like Ust Atka.
They've used several approaches to naming scheme. Some are just plain geographic names twisted and turned a letter or two, some are made up, some copied and some are just plain funny. I don't want to know how the other words came to life: nona, torva, psepola, ytarlavek, etc, etc. It was enough to see how the titles sound.
And Rjurik was a name of an actual ruler, I think Scandinavian that ruled a part of present day Russia or smth.

[AndrewTall]

Well I think that the only people worried about the name are here, so what would sound better for a small land basically consisting of a town and the area that the chiefs axe can reach? Unless there is a reference in the Manticore's domain page then this is the only time it will be referred to...

[Gheal]

Using early russian city names as guideline I can propose these variants:
Morrinov (town or castle founded or owned by Morrin)
Morrino (hamlet owned or founded by Morrin)
Morrin (town or castle owned or founded by Morr or Morra)
Less historical variants:
Morinkrom (Morrin Krom)
Morgrad (-grad or -gorod means usually fortified town or city, but for vos province (4) this suits fine)
Morrinsk
Some twists with these variants will be appreciated, for I can't keep in style with vos naming convention (I automatically start to adopt rules of modern Russian, but vos names mostly are slightly different).

So that's my 2 cp. :)

[Rey]

Can even be used as a nice template for future names. ;-)

I don't know, Chronicle of Cerilia states: 1520
Manticore comes to power in Madrik;

To me, Madrik is the name of the domain. When Chronicle mentions a name that is not a domain, it's mostly pointed out, like "the province of..." or "the town/village..."

[Rey]

I've moved the Gnoll Fells from the Feral Lands and placed it under Western Reach. Mainly because it is not mentioned under Feral Lands in ToTH, but non-human realms. The gnolls are equally in the same situation as neighboring Vos, fearing the trials from the real Feral lands and have already succumbed to Tuar Annwn.
Also, I've added Torova Temylatin under Vosgaard's Feral Lands.

[Rey]

Current division of Vosgaard is:
Feral Lands, Orlenaskyy Uplands, Dragon Coast, Great Steppe and Western Reach. Since there are already Western Reaches in Brechtur, maybe this one should be called Western Outlands, as Kenneth once proposed.

The Outlands are Gnoll Fells, Hjorig and Rzhlev. I've been thinking about putting Molochev in that group, but I don't know now.

Orlenaskyy Uplands are Melyy, Lutkhovsky, Velenoye and Sword Rust Tribes. Also thought about putting the Manticore's domain in there but left it to Dragon Coast with the Raven's, Yeninskiy and Zoloskaya. I've had an idea of making up one historically important domain that bordered Ust Atka but now is a part of the Raven's domain.

Great Steppe domain's are Rovninodensk, Kal Kalathor, Cwmb Bheinn, Kozlovnyy and Molochev.
Feral Lands are: Tuar Annwn, Battle Fens, Mistmoor, Icemarch.