Vosgaard

[Rey]

Discussion thread for Vosgaard. If you would like to add a comment, click the Post Reply button.

[Rey]

There are couple of things about Vosgaard that would need some attention.

(First) Vosgaard is the only region of Cerilia divided into PC realms, NPC realms, Feral lands and Awnshegh realms, while other regions have some geographical meaning. I was wondering if the similar thing could be arranged for Vosgaard.
Proposal:

a) Savage North or Feral Lands (like the name says): the Icemarch, the Gnoll Fells, the Battle Fens, the Mistmoor and Tuar Annwn.
b) The Orlenaskyy Lands (realms oriented around basic Orlenaskyy Mountains): Lutkhovsky, Melyy, The Sword Rust Tribes and Velenoye.
c) Western Spearlands (because they jab like a spear into Brecht lands, lol): Hjorig, Rzhlev and Molochev.
d) Eastern Reach: Yeninskiy, Zoloskaya, The Raven's realm and Manticore's domain.
e) (Central) Spinelands (being the spine of Vosgaard): Rovninodensk, Kal Kalathor, Kozlovnyy and Cwmb Bheinn.

(second) Kozlovnyy is a three-century old Vos realm that rests on the remains of overrun, former Khinasi Medec, but it's a Vos ruled realm. I agree with Kenneth for moving this one from Khinasi to Vosgaard, and wonder if the similar rule could be applied to Rzhlev (I've already included Rzhlev in the above list)? Also about Hjorig, it's a Rjurik-community realm but it's definitively cut off the main Rjurik region, unlike Rzhlev and Kozlovnyy.
The same destiny has befallen Vos realm of Pipryet which war overtaken by the Magian and is a part of Khinasi region.

(third) The definition of nona and torva Vos would have to go on separate page(s).

(fourth) The actual domains of the Raven, or the Manticore, or the Gnoll Fells need a redirection from pages Raven's Realm, Manticore's Domain, or Gnoll Fells, i.e. without the article.

[kgauck]

I would very much like to see Vosgaard divided up like the rest of Cerilia, into regions. Those proposed look good.

I didn't so much move Kozlovnyy from Khinasi to Vosgaard as I listed it both places. Although it seems to be mis-spelled on the Khinasi page. Rzhlev should be in both Brectur and Vosgaard so that people can find it regardless of whether they know it was in HofGB or whether they know its a Vos realm. Hjorig seems to be a little Rjurik, a little Vos, and a little Brecht. I added Hjorig to the Rjurik listing, but invented a new group, "other Rjurik realms" which is for Hjorig and the Thaele colonies. Perhaps a new term like "the outlands" would be better. In general, I'd put a realm where ever I think people will look for it.

Nona and torva should have seperate pages and they probabaly deserve to be article length if someone feels like putting on their analytical hat and explaining this all. Vosgaard was a hurried project, and this aspect seems very glossed over. Cerilia is full of contact zones where cultures meet and share influence, and unlike many fantasy realms, it doesn't happen cleanly. There is a great deal of interplay of cultures, which is very realistic and interesting. So something incomplete like the description of nona and torva remains a disappointment. How does a culture which embraces Belinik and Kriesha loose confidence in itself and decided that the grass is greener and abandon the old ways? The example of Peter the Great offers some examples, but that was one man and the result was a French speaking nobility in a very western context ruling over a decidedly backwards country. Potemkin village, says it all. This is a culture loosing confidence and people clearly aware that the neighboring Khinasi and Brecht are something altogether different, and wanting it. Struggles in the Orthodox Church between the old believers and the new (late 17th century) might offer some insights here. Its potentially a very rich and interesting situation which hasn't been developed.

In part 4, some of the awnie domains you're referring to are little more place holders.

[Rey]

OK, let's wait and see what others have to say.

In the meantime, just a little info on the subject, as far as wiki is concerned. I'm working on Vosgaard following this routine: search the TotHW for useful data (and correct the conflicting ones, TotHW is full of them) and put it on the wiki, create important and necessary pages (like nona and torva, for example), going back to the roots of Vos settling the Vosgaard, enrich the historical data and then elaborate through domains, descriptions, characters, holdings and so on. The target is to make Vosgaard a usable region for a campaign, resulting in PSs of player realms.

[cccpxepoj]

I would very much like to see Vosgaard divided up like the rest of Cerilia, into regions. Those proposed look good.

As we all

The example of Peter the Great offers some examples, but that was one man and the result was a French speaking nobility in a very western context ruling over a decidedly backwards country.

I would not agree to that, the changes brought by the Peter the Great where much bigger, he took backward country and turned it in the powerful state. Course the life of common people was still hard, but he made Russia part of Europe not Asia. Imperial Russia was not so backwater as later Soviet regime wanted to show.

This is a culture loosing confidence and people clearly aware that the neighboring Khinasi and Brecht are something altogether different, and wanting it.

As many other cultures on Cerilia are facing two paths, Rjuric are choosing between nomadic or settled way of life, elf between revenge and forgiving...
I am not sure can i describe you this but i am living in a country that is facing similar problem, right now political opinion is divided between two currents, one stream towards "western" countries(EU, USA..) and other is streaming to the self isolation and small cooperation with the "eastern"(China, Russia..) countries. The discord has drained country and its resources, the economy is weak, reputation is ruined, and there is constant feuding between politicians.
Now imagine all that in more medieval, brutal and violent Vos fashion and you have the source of Nona vs. Torva conflict.
As i already said to Ray i am eager to help in Vosgaard project, just when i finish exams ( damned college always bothering me in my birthright gaming)
and as soon as figure out how to post something on wiki.

[kgauck]

I would not agree to that, the changes brought by the Peter the Great where much bigger, he took backward country and turned it in the powerful state. Course the life of common people was still hard, but he made Russia part of Europe not Asia. Imperial Russia was not so backwater as later Soviet regime wanted to show.

My point was not that Peter was not Great, but that its easy to overstate the achievement. Peter did not re-create Western Europe in Russia despite a herculean effort. Cultures don't turn on a dime.

Also the people under-rated by the Soviets were the 19th century Czars, who really did some good work modernizing Russia in a world where industrialization kept the bar in motion. The Soviets needed to criticize the later Czars not only for ideological reasons, but also because the Russian Revolution, Civil War, the New Economic Policy, and the Purges set Russia back 20 or more years. The New Economic Policy and the Five Year Plans were a mess.

As many other cultures on Cerilia are facing two paths, Rjuric are choosing between nomadic or settled way of life, elf between revenge and forgiving...

My academic area is Habsburg Austria. So I would also point to the diving line created by Austria and Ottoman Turkey. Much of the division in the former Yugoslavia is a consequence of the slow movement of this line south.

From a Vos point of view, the barbaric East is Belinik and Kriesha. There is a modern west, in the Brecht, who can serve a nice analog to the Germans, Dutch, English, and Swedes who work nicely into Peter's modernization. The Khinasi serve as an alternate modern, based on a conjectured Ottoman influence on Russia c. the 16th century when Turkey was well organized.

Of course there should also be a strong overlay of Sera and Avani respectively.

[cccpxepoj]

Peter did not re-create Western Europe in Russia.

No he didn't, he created Russian Russia, not Western European not Central Asian, just unique as any other culture is.Actions and reforms of later Czars where built upon a foundation he build.

My academic area is Habsburg Austria. So I would also point to the diving line created by Austria and Ottoman Turkey. Much of the division in the former Yugoslavia is a consequence of the slow movement of this line south.

i am planing my future master and PHD study on that area too. And you are right about that division( as i am living north of Danube river in former Austrian part of country), but as in many cases that is not the whole story.

the barbaric East is Belinik and Kriesha. There is a modern west, in the Brecht, who can serve a nice analog to the Germans, Dutch, English, and Swedes who work nicely into Peter's modernization. The Khinasi serve as an alternate modern, based on a conjectured Ottoman influence on Russia c. the 16th century when Turkey was well organized.

I hope it is just a metaphor, as a faithful of Eastern Orthodox Christian Church i was slightly insulted, but don't worry be happy.
But again yes, the Brecht and their colonist will certainly improve economy and bring technological progress, and the Khinasi will influence them with culture and understanding of magic.

Of course there should also be a strong overlay of Sera and Avani respectively.

There is some hidden cults of Avani in Vosgaard, and some Sera's cults will rise, but in my opinion most of the nona Vos will turn back to the teachings of Ruornil and some will reform the teachings of Belinik and Kriesha, as they once did in the time of Carevic Basil. and this talk is only if the nona faction eventually win.

But we strayed from the topic, point is Vos are not Russians, as it was many times highlighted on this site, they just resemble the Russians and other Slavs with they names and names of their provinces.
I will just comment Proliv province, in Ust Atka, Proliv in my language means looseness of the bowels.

[kgauck]

No he didn't, he created Russian Russia, not Western European not Central Asian, just unique as any other culture is.Actions and reforms of later Czars where built upon a foundation he build.

This misses the point. Cultures are rich complexes of various elements. I've only be considering what the gaming world would call "tech level". How modern is Russia. When I said he didn't re-create Western Europe in Russia I am referring to the shipyards, mines, foundries, and scientific academies Peter visited in his tour to the West. Peter wanted a modern Russia, but his accomplishment was not to modernize Russia, but to open the door to modernity and push Russia through it, kicking and screaming.

i am planing my future master and PHD study on that area too. And you are right about that division (as i am living north of Danube river in former Austrian part of country), but as in many cases that is not the whole story.

A game forum isn't really the place for the whole story. In terms of making a historical argument, its the place to make analogies that will be useful for gaming.

I hope it is just a metaphor, as a faithful of Eastern Orthodox Christian Church i was slightly insulted, but don't worry be happy. But again yes, the Brecht and their colonist will certainly improve economy and bring technological progress, and the Khinasi will influence them with culture and understanding of magic.

The metaphor referred to the unsettled peoples of Central Asia, Turkic and Mongolian speaking horsemen who dominated Russia during the era of the Golden Horde. It is this past that Peter was attempting to overcome. This is the "east" that the Russians wanted to escape and the cities, like Antwerp that Peter saw, that he wanted to recreate with St Petersburg and some of his other Baltic construction.

But we strayed from the topic, point is Vos are not Russians, as it was many times highlighted on this site, they just resemble the Russians and other Slavs with they names and names of their provinces.

Its more than that. We've got images inspired by early Russian art and archeology, washed over with a fantasy brush. Without one or more base cultures (I prefer several) we have to use our imagination to fill in the gaps.

For instance, I have an encyclopedia of mythology. By looking at the chapter on Slavic myths, I can draw on stories and situations that will do quite nicely for the Vos. Its not a one to one situation, but if we don't know the cultural analog(s) then the Vos are a blank slate.

[cccpxepoj]

You are right, this is no place for the historical argument. In my first post i was just trying to compare real life of my country with Vos nona vs torva conflict and hope i helped someone to understand it better.
Images of Vos from different BR. rulebooks remind me of old Conan movies, and they equipment looks more Mongolian then Russian so in many of adventures i tried accentuate on that part of Vos.

[Elton Robb]

You are right, this is no place for the historical argument. In my first post i was just trying to compare real life of my country with Vos nona vs torva conflict and hope i helped someone to understand it better.
Images of Vos from different BR. rulebooks remind me of old Conan movies, and they equipment looks more Mongolian then Russian so in many of adventures i tried accentuate on that part of Vos.

The Vos to me are based on the Huns, really. An Indo-European race that looked a lot like the mongols, yeah. They are just Huns with Russian names and Russian customs. Vos itself could be Hunnic.