Hjorig

[cccpxepoj]

I am running the game in this part of Cerilia right now, and i noticed something odd. Hjorig is the only Rjurick realm that follow different faith. And this Rjurick follow the Lirorn instead of Erik. Question is why ??
Maybe the reason for their flight from Taelschore was not just a question of clan organization( as it said in the tribes of heartless waste,dm's guidebook,page 18 )or they their creed after the flight, that is because the land called Hjorig today was Brecht realm of Gauren earlier, an there is a strong temple of Ruornil in nearby Grevesmull.
And how the ordinary rjuven function with this "new way" ?
If someone have some constructive ideas please share it with the rest of us. ;)

[kgauck]

It's not a new way Its old wine in new bottles. They worship much as they had before and revere Ruornil for his protection of wilderness places. What would be different is the method of instruction. Rather than skalds singing songs and telling tales that instruct the faithful in the lore of Erik, the priests of Ruornil introduce you to a mystery and then though teaching the secret that explains the mystery, which then leads to a new mystery and a new secret.

[cccpxepoj]

yes it is OK but the question why and when, cause there is no other faith in the rjurick realms other then Erik. Did they changed their ways before the flight from Taelshore, in the way( because druids supported other side in the war ), or was it when they arrived in Gauren.

[kgauck]

I would say this has to do with the pre-existing realm of Gauren. For the Brechts, Erik may be a bit too natural, while Ruornil, has a nature aspect and is the husband of Sera. Being a frontier realm, they still wanted to be true to the patron couple, and so worshiped Sera's consort, Ruornil as the frontier/wilderness defender. Plus strange, new places hold their own secrets and who better to root out these secrets than the father of secrets himself.

However we get some idea about the coming of the Rjurik. For if they came all at once as conquerors and overwhelmed the place, the religious patterns would have been destroyed with the defeated peoples. But if the Rjurik came seeking shelter and then gradually overwhelmed the society they found, then they would have accepted the old religious patterns and modified them over time back toward their more culturally familiar patterns.

Upon arrival, the Rjurik settlers found the faith of Ruornil and accepted it as part of their new life here. Ruornil is an ally of Erik and I would say you have priests and druids of Ruornil back home among the circles of the Oaken Grove and Emerald Spire. Eventually some of Erik's specific concerns about nature fade and Ruornil's concerns come to replace them.

The new arrivals gradually assimilated the old settlers, and new exogamous marriages are going to introduce Brecht and Vos members into Hjorig society. So figures like Otto Thorsson, combining Brecht and Rjurik aspects will be common. I imagine that in the most advanced and sophisticated crafts, young Brecht craftsmen of talent try their luck and set up in Rjurik cities hoping to strike it rich with their skills. Likewise here the guilds would have a disproportionate number of Brecht, and the army a disproportionate absence of them. I would expect the Brecht to be found mostly in the guilds and temples.

[Sorontar]

Arjan said in an old email:

In "heaven of the great bay" ,the description of danigau, it says : "Regent:
Erik Danig....recently married Katherine Gauren. Katherines family once
ruled Gaurenstadt which is now the Rjurik Domain (here it comes:) HJORIG"

I am trying to clean up these bits of the BRwiki. Is anything more made in the TSR documents about her family's ancient associations with Hjorig?

Sorontar

[Cargaroth]

In line with the heroic nature of the Birthright setting, perhaps the answer lies with some distinctive figure in the past. Perhaps the leader of the original rjurik settlers was themselves a worshipper of Ruornil and left the Highlands in order to escape the persecution of the druids? Perhaps they themselves or their spouce was a great mage of some strength who was instrumental in the invasion of Hjorvig? Or, as has been suggested, some great figure in brecht history has tempered the overbearing rjurik rule with the more subtle magic of Ruornil?

Given the pervasiveness of Erik's place in rjurik culture, I would suggest that the Hjorvig themselves are a splinter group of the main rjurik culture, and that their alternate choise of diety if a reflection of a schism. I imagine that this would reflect strongly upon the nature of modern day Hjorvig, particulqar attitudes to rjuvens from the Highlands. The oppressive nature of the modern Hjorvig monarchy might also be seen as an example of the spiritual vacuum created by this groups schism from their worship of Erik (something I'm sure Druids would argue.)

[kgauck]

The current dynasty has been "rulers in exile" for six centuries. Rulers one might presume of Hjorig, but they could have ruled provinces or some intermediate place, such as around Kvigmar and Hjolvar during the earlier part of this time too.

As for the Gaurens, I might suggest there is a lordship somewhere in the west (Western Reaches, Western Basin States) where a great family hails with a competitive bloodline, archived some greatness in Hjorig, and now continues to marry regents in the west.

[kgauck]

I would suggest that the Hjorvig themselves are a splinter group of the main rjurik culture, and that their alternate choise of diety if a reflection of a schism.
Being away from other Rjurik and surrounded by foreign peoples is probably a sufficient explanation for cultural differences today.


The oppressive nature of the modern Hjorvig monarchy might also be seen as an example of the spiritual vacuum created by this groups schism from their worship of Erik (something I'm sure Druids would argue.)

This is wildly implausible give the six centuries that passed from dwelling among the Rjurik and today. I would suggest that six centuries is plenty of time for cultural change to take place, including becoming something different, becoming more like the Vos, more like the Brecht, or some mix of any of those.

Its also possible that the oppressive nature of the current Hjorvig regime is because the regent has "sociopathic tendencies".

[cccpxepoj]

I would say this has to do with the pre-existing realm of Gauren. For the Brechts, Erik may be a bit too natural, while Ruornil, has a nature aspect and is the husband of Sera. Being a frontier realm, they still wanted to be true to the patron couple, and so worshiped Sera's consort, Ruornil as the frontier/wilderness defender. Plus strange, new places hold their own secrets and who better to root out these secrets than the father of secrets himself.
Yes and in the neighboring realm of Grevesmuhl we have church of Ruornil ( "Ruornils Silver Guard") so it is possible that the Gaurenstadt had the same religion, and yes another Brecht frontier realm(Rheulgard) has church of ruornil so that theory might work.
My opinion is that before migration of todays Hjorigers, they severed the old ties
with druids, because they( the druids) helped, or they were, opposing side in that conflict. So the new but similar faith suited them.

[AndrewTall]

Yes and in the neighboring realm of Grevesmuhl we have church of Ruornil ( "Ruornils Silver Guard") so it is possible that the Gaurenstadt had the same religion, and yes another Brecht frontier realm(Rheulgard) has church of ruornil so that theory might work.
My opinion is that before migration of todays Hjorigers, they severed the old ties with druids, because they( the druids) helped, or they were, opposing side in that conflict. So the new but similar faith suited them.

It could be that the druids simply didn't take a side - if the existing church (old fools) don't help the brash young men to defend/conquer their land but the ruornilites will (a vibrant faith that acts!) then the new church will rapidly displace the old. As Erik's portfolio is weak amongst the guilds (i.e. the wealthy) then if the nobles/army (i.e. the rest of the wealthy people) start looking elsewhere for support then Erik becomes irrelevant in the main part and loses political power.

With Ruornil being strong locally I'd picture that either his portfolio has a key aspect (local ties to the shadow world) or that the local interpretation of his faith has some element that strongly appeals to the local powerbrokers - such as support for strong armies and disinterest in the dodgier doings of the rich.

[cccpxepoj]

Being away from other Rjurik and surrounded by foreign peoples is probably a sufficient explanation for cultural differences today.
This is wildly implausible give the six centuries that passed from dwelling among the Rjurik and today. I would suggest that six centuries is plenty of time for cultural change to take place, including becoming something different, becoming more like the Vos, more like the Brecht, or some mix of any of those.

Tribes of Heartless Waste,DM's Guidebook,NPC realms,page 18 :
"They fled the Rjurick lands across the Great Bay and found unexplored lands between Vosgaard and Brechtur. Here they settled, ousting the few Brecht and many creatures in residence".
I looked in my dictionary and word OUST does not suggest any peaceful cultural mix, but non the less the cultural mixing did happen( i have friend whose grandfather killed his another grandfather in WW 2, and their children got married anyway). For second Hjorigers are posterity of Rjurick nobles and their supporters, that mean they were privileged class during the anurian rule, and they fought for traditions more anurian then rjurick. So my opinion is they were mixed with anurians, or at least influenced with them, at the beginning of flight.

[kgauck]

Alexander ousted the Persian great king and many of his satraps, but the legacy of the Hellenistic kingdoms is peaceful cultural mix. Your own example suggests how this is so.

Generally privileged classes don't abandon what they have for the unknown. So its unlikely they were very high on the social pyramid. Now its possible that they might have been on the wrong side of things when the Anuirean Empire fell, but that doesn't match the time line. Further, if they were mixed with Anuireans (as opposed to just influenced) they probably would have fled to Anuire to take up with their relations rather than undertake a journey worthy of Aneaus.

Rather I think that a community (perhaps as large as a kingdom) was divided over the questions identified in the TofHW, settlement and the like, and that the founders of Hjorig represent those who lost at home. Unwilling to continue to live in the old style (perhaps enamored of some Anuirean habits, but one suspects perhaps more tempted by the Brecht) they departed to set up a society as the envisioned.

Who was ousted? Everyone or the Brecht leaders? I would say the old leaders were dispossesed, not only the house of Gauren by their followers and well, and the new ruler named his closest friends and supporters as the new jarls. Much of the populace might well have stayed.

[cccpxepoj]

Sorry but I'm not a native english speaker so i took the word translation literally.
The example i made is extreme, but it can explain the cultural mix with the Brecht.Other realms in the Overlook are not looking kindly on Hjorig, they are described as "bandit kingdom", and it is said that they repelled invasions of the Vos, the Brecht, the Gnolls and all sorts of creatures from Drachenaur Mountains. But present reputation of country could be result of degenerated ruler.If the ancestors of Hjorigers were mixed( or influenced ) with Anurians, they were still Rjurick and they believed they could make new better Rjurick community, so the migration to Anuire was out of question(cause in Anure they will share the same fate as Hjalson), and that is way they took "Anaeus journey" to the lands of Overlook.

[Cargaroth]

There are a wide variety of reasons why the acestors of modern Hjorvig departed their homeland for the Overlook. Preseuming Anuirean involvement or brecht inter-racial mixing seems strange to me. Being the only rjurik nation surrounded by enemies, I would suspect that they would have become insular and xenophobic of their neighbours. Having been cut off from their spiritual roots, dark belinik like cults may have been a part of thier history. What ever makes a good story!

[kgauck]

Why interbreeding? Because its how the Vikings themselves did it. Without it, their own population would very possibly fallen until they were forgotten.

[AndrewTall]

A culture that replaces the former 'top dogs' in a social community will almost inevitably interbreed significantly barring some huge racial/religious prejudice. For a lot of conquering races mating with anything female on two legs seems to have been the primary purpose of the invasion based on the genetic out-turn. It depends a lot on whether the Rjurik who came to Hjorig were basically a military invasion force (almost entirely male, inter-breeding high on the agenda) or the relocation of a total community (male and female invaders are present, 'invader' female population discourages the invader male population from routine miscegenation through reduced necessity and social pressure to maintain invader culture).

[Sorontar]

Since it sounds like the Rjurik newcomers were fleeing from the Taelshore, I suspect that there would have been a fair amount of families who went to Hjorig. They would have initially found an unoccupied piece of land, settled and in a few generations they would have been part of the scenery. Somehow they managed to become the dominant political force in the area. This could have been due to many things. They could have been better traders, better military, or just better political players. Either way, they managed to become the regents of the area.

I cannot really see them as invaders after fleeing from a civil war, which they lost.

Sorontar.

[Cargaroth]

Why not fleeing some internal dispute from within the Highlands? Certainly a very small realm would not have enough numbers from a failed coup to take over another nation entirely, but from a larger nation or groups of nations. Perhaps a religious movement or other political scism where exile has been chosen in order to avert civil war? I would love to know more of Hjorg's founding fathers and their movtivation to sail east to the Overlook. Anyone interested in some creative writing?

[cccpxepoj]

Why not fleeing some internal dispute from within the Highlands? Certainly a very small realm would not have enough numbers from a failed coup to take over another nation entirely, but from a larger nation or groups of nations. Perhaps a religious movement or other political scism where exile has been chosen in order to avert civil war? I would love to know more of Hjorg's founding fathers and their movtivation to sail east to the Overlook. Anyone interested in some creative writing?
I don't wont to be rude, but try to read the previous post more carefully, we are talking about that. And there is some hints in the "Havens of the Great Bay" and "Tribes of heartless waste", and from information in those books we know that they did not choose exile to avoid fight, they fought and they lost,and the result
was their flight too Overlook. And they were not the fugitives from one country, they fled the anurian dominated part of rjurick highlands(aka Taelshore) and modern day Taelshore is made up of 5 realms in the present day.

[Lee]

Why not fleeing some internal dispute from within the Highlands? Certainly a very small realm would not have enough numbers from a failed coup to take over another nation entirely, but from a larger nation or groups of nations. Perhaps a religious movement or other political schism where exile has been chosen in order to avert civil war? I would love to know more of Hjorg`s founding fathers and their motivation to sail east to the Overlook. Anyone interested in some creative writing?

I`m liking this, as I am reading on Aaron Burr right now. After losing his political capital in New York and Washington, he took off to Louisiana with the idea of rebuilding himself as a leader there. So, I could easily see the loser of some dispute (violent or otherwise) at home, taking off for new lands and settling down far away. That`s what Erik the Red did in Greenland (or was it Iceland?), after all.

Lee.

[kgauck]

The problem with this scenario is that typically is the poor loser and his family and followers who wander off. Its a very small number compared to a whole realm, and almost certainly all that would remain would be some curious artifacts and perhaps some Rjurik personal names in use by a Brecht population.

Of the things we know for sure, Hjorig is a Rjurik (or Rjurik hybrid) country. Comments about how its different from the typical Rjurik realm don't make sense if they are at least partly Rjurik. That means a large enough population must have made the journey, either at once or over time, that a fairly substantial part of the population could marry other Rjuriks instead of marrying outside the group.

Whatever impelled these people to move, it wasn't something that effected one person or just a small group. The whole group is in motion for reasons that make sense to a whole group.

There was some thought earlier about people rejecting Erik and embracing Ruornil, and then leaving. This makes sense and has historical analogs. The Pilgrims were Calvanists leaving a high church Anglican estabishment. The Mormons traveled from Illinois to western Missouri, and then to Utah.

Religion doesn't have to be the motive, but the motive does have to effect everyone the way a religious issue would.

[cccpxepoj]

i think that cause of the flight is clearly political, at least they tell us that in the ToHW, and they didn't came from one realm but from a whole region.
Things we don't know is when and why they changed they religion, is it before flight( and that is one of reasons they are different from other Rjurick), or after when they mixed with the Brecht(who still follow the Ruornil in the same region) and perhaps Vos( lost tribe that still followed Lirovka ?!).

[Rey]

Hjorigers were the first settlers of today's provinces now belonging to Gorgon and sourrounding 'nations'. Not being able to hold on to their lands like Kvigmarians and Hjolvarians (at least on paper) they were left no other choice than to cross the great bay.
Pressed between the Gorgon, Giantdowns, goblins, orogs, elves, expanding Anuirean empire and other human(oid)s this scarce and weakened Rjurik nation thrived futilely for decades until the final decision to flee the area. In winter lands of northern Brechtur (because it was out of reach of most of their past homelands enemies) they've managed better than the natives so their prevalence after 6 centuries of peaceful coexistence is really no surprise.
They've embraced their host's culture and heritage to show gratitude for hospitality.