My crucial Birthright problem

[Pauper]

greetings,

I just was informed by http://easydamus.com/character.html

that I am a lawful good rogue level 4 with lowest stat 12...???? :confused:

My problem with Birthright: The blood is too weak!

Even demon or dragon blooded characters of minor line get more boni and feats. Seriously, even in the official stuff. SPICE IT UP.

I consider bloodline should be a stat like all others (range 3 -25, 9 to 18 at start). Bld 16 would mean at minimum three blood abilities and depending on tainted, minor, major and greater would be the choice of them.

Even in a low-magic campaign world it simply can't be that any cleric is more powerful, than a blooded scion... otherwise let's open a troll-bloodline, if BR deities are so weak! :o

I really think the blooded scions of the sanctioned chapters are otherwise very well-made, yet... more blood abilities for proper characters! :rolleyes:

[Rowan]

What relation does the website or your character have to your Birthright bloodline question? Are you just trying to advertise the website?

Bloodlines in Birthright have no correlation to any kind of blood template or ability elsewhere in D&D. They were a 2e innovation long before any of those demon- or dragon- or pheasant-blooded spinoffs were dreamed up.

Similarly, for domain level play and because of 2e origins, many people prefer the old 2e method of determining bloodline strength, as it primarily relates to RP and has almost no use in adventure-level games, like the other stats do.

I don't know how or why you're trying to compare a cleric to a blooded scion. They're too different things. Cleric is a class, scion is just a trait that has more to do with rulership than anything else.

I agree that the bloodline powers need some work, but I think we're speaking from such different perspectives at the moment that there's no point in talking about those yet.

[AndrewTall]

The issue is balancing scion and non-scion classes. If you make blood abilities more frequent or stronger then you need to give something more to non-scions to compensate.

The only way around that is to have everyone play a scion, or to make scion a full class - and even then a L10 scion and a L10 cleric (or L10 anythig else) should be of equal power across the game as a whole to avoid player discontent. (If you want an unbalanced system play Rifts). Given that BR is frequently played by email between people who don't know each other well the need for a degree of parity is in my view paramount.

Personally I'd see being blooded as having a huge non-mechanic impact on the game - people instinctively defer to the scion, the scion has more 'get-up-and-go', creativity, is more memorable, etc - I suppose this could be modeled by a charisma modifier based on bloodline score or accumulated regency but I think that the rule hit would be unnecessary - like nobles in 'realistic' medieval settings scions are simply considered 'better' than everyone else by virtue of the gods blood proven to run in their veins.

[geeman]

At 11:37 AM 4/1/2008, Pauper wrote:

>I consider bloodline should be a stat like all others (range 3 -25,
>9 to 18 at start). Bld 16 would mean at minimum three blood
>abilities and depending on tainted, minor, major and greater would
>be the choice of them.

There have been 3e BR conversions that made bloodline an ability
score similar to what your suggesting. If you poke around you can
probably find some material for them.

>Even in a low-magic campaign world it simply can`t be that any
>cleric is more powerful, than a blooded scion... otherwise let`s
>open a troll-bloodline, if BR deities are so weak! :o

Bloodline does make characters more powerful personally since they
get a power or two (usually) but its most effective use is at the
domain level of play. That`s where you`ll find a real difference
between commoners and scions/regents. Blood abilities are not,
however, meant to be a sort of gonzo adventure level twist that
tosses game balance out the window. In all honesty, if you`re
looking for a campaign in which a half-weredragon tiefling hierophant
would fit right in then you`re probably going to find Birthright
rather drab....

Gary

[ThatSeanGuy]

I usually just use the ability score level for adventure-focused games. Most Major powers are the equivelent of a feat for a first level character, man, and that's not too shabby.

I would, I think, like to see a way of increasing focus on powers of the blood without making it manditory: Maybe make "Great Scion" a prestiege class or something along those lines, but I wouldn't say most of the blood abilities are anything to sneeze at.

[irdeggman]

I usually just use the ability score level for adventure-focused games. Most Major powers are the equivelent of a feat for a first level character, man, and that's not too shabby.

I would, I think, like to see a way of increasing focus on powers of the blood without making it manditory: Maybe make "Great Scion" a prestiege class or something along those lines, but I wouldn't say most of the blood abilities are anything to sneeze at.


The way 4th ed is going this would be a fairly easy concept to introduce.

A "scion tree" concept.

But those rules are a long way off. . . . .

[ThatSeanGuy]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. You can develop feats and talents based on your priorities-and to keep balanced, the other trees might be given domain-level attributes. Like, a fighter's ability to attract enemy missle fire could be used on a unit-level during war, or even in attracting enemy espionage and contest holding actions towards a better defended holding.

[Pauper]

Thanks for all your replies. PLEASE remember, I am rarely online so don't take my silence as insult, I'll articulate such to distinguish in proper cases. :p

I was working with the SRD 3.5 compiled by Sovelior, there is a Bloodline section under Unearthed Arcana and ... damn, even a half-titan or lesser demon gets more than just one or two petty feats.

The blood of gods is a crucial and unique part of Birthright. I wasn't asking for any help for my own. THANKS THOUGH.

My goal was once again, to inspire or maybe a bit challenge the officials to consider our opinions, especially when we share and contribute to keep Birthright alive. :rolleyes:

I did most of what I could. One day I may read "The hags contract", find & download red-books and do a full, nearly professional-looking adventure idea, yet ... I am a bit sick of that theme for a while. I had a "Conan" flash recently and I made available more, than I originally planned. I shared (see downloads, if you like) some stuff. My goals is earning money, not pseudo-necromancy on a dying dream. Sorry, a part of me is really adult by now. :eek:


As written before, this is not meant as insult or disrespect, I am just heavily hit by facts and competition. I brought results, I tried to inspire and I tried o be helpful. Not for the first time, yet how much less do people deserve, if they steal my mental property instead of just mentioning me as freelance author or among the support crew?

My great fascination for dark themes may have made it less easy to perceive: From the day I contacted Arjan and registered, my goal was to be helpful and inspiring as far as I could. I think that has been done, I simply claim I lack skills and resources to do more. :D

I am happy that some of you cared to reply and I hope we somehow will get the stunt done and make Birthright rise above such petty projects like --- insert whatever is in the way---


post skriptum

The cartographers guild didn't allow this author to download the Brecht-Map... hey, there is no crying smiley???

[ploesch]

Paper, I think you may slightly misunderstand what being blooded means.

first off, your not a half god. You have some divine essense in you, and the more of this essence you posess the more blood abilities you get, but even the most powerful bloodlines are no more than a 1/1,000 of a gods power, I'm talking Gorgon. At that level you wouldn't be able to claim any abilities of say a demon or titan. Most Bloodlines are in the 1/1,000,000,000 of a gods power.

Secondly, the main point of being a scion, or being blooded is not adventure level abilities. The main purpose is being able to effectively rule. You see, even a half-titan, lesser demon couldn't rule in cerilia without being blooded. They might be able to cause allot of trouble, but they wouldn't account for much more than a random event.

[irdeggman]

What I see as the major difference between the UA bloodline system and the BR one is that the UA system is essentially a way of handling a "transformation". As you progress in character level you gradually "transform" or become more like the creature type that is the source of the bloodline. That is one reason I thought that would be a decent system to pattern the awn/ershegh transformation process and serve to make a distinction between the normal bloodline score increase benefits.

The BR bloodline system is less about becoming more like the source as you progress in character levels as it is about getting more "gifts" that reflect that heritage. Which is primarily reflected in being a better regent - which is the primary "gift".

It is impossible with the BR bloodline system to progress to a true bloodline via any means, well I guess you could do it via bloodtheft on a scion with one (but see the reference to the number in existence with true bloodlines). You either managed to start with one (with required both a close proximity to the deity and close alignment with that deity's beliefs) or inherited it via being a direct descendent of one that was there. Note that there are no documented scions remaining with true bloodlines other than the awnies who have an Azrai bloodline.

[kgauck]

I don't think the UA bloodlines are transformative at all. They presume that you have some inheritance that only manifests according to D&D principles, that is that power increases as level increases.

Nothing about having a UA bloodline makes you less human, its more about being fully human and this other thing.

[ThatSeanGuy]

Which is one of those, "If no one has it, what's the damn point?" things that always bug me a little.

[Green Knight]

I don't see any major problems adapting UA bloodlines for birthright. Each divine derivation would have one "tree" (or more, if you'd like important lineages to have slight variations from a common theme...aka Boerunie vs. Avan). And it would be easy to add a more potent "True" version as well. Perhaps not my choice, but as I said, easily done...and a good fit I would say.

Since everything else in 3E is tied to level, one option would be to go for a BS tied to level as well. x1 lvl for minor, x3 lvl for intermediate, x5 lvl for great or some such.

[Sorontar]

Either way, some Ehr/Awnies have been mentioned that are mid-way to their full transformation. My main concern is the Ehrshegh, the Badger. The artwork and the description given in the original source describe him as having badger ears, dark fur on his face and a left arm that has started transforming. I have a good idea of what his final form should be and what special abilities he should have, but the issue is how should he be described as getting there? Especially since the transformations for the Ehrsheghlien are semi-voluntary. Should he just wake up one morning and say "I wish I had a tail" or "I wish I had stronger nails" and lo-and-behold they start growing?

And what level ehrshegh is the final form? And if he starts off as a ranger, will he be able to use any ranger abilities when he is a full ehrshegh? Or will some of them transform into ehrshegh abilities?

I see it as a three step process.
Step 1) Bloodtrait (minor) - The character's body shape starts changing. Where and when the changes occur is not controlled by the individual but the changes are still minor enough to be concealed. No new abilities are gained from the changes.
Step 2) Bloodtrait (major) - The character can change components of their body into the target form at will, e.g. limbs, head, hands. This change is voluntary and controlled, but is also semi-permanent. The abilities of the target form can be accessed provided the appropriate part of the body has changed. No tail or whiskers generated.
Step 3) Bloodtrait (great) - The hybrid form is complete and is now the permanent preferred form. The character should now be considered a fully formed ehrshegh.

Therefore, there would be 3 levels of Ehrshegh in most cases. Any Ehrshegh that has further levels is an exceptional creature with exceptional abilities. The Badger described is Ehrshegh 1.

Sorontar

[irdeggman]

I don't think the UA bloodlines are transformative at all. They presume that you have some inheritance that only manifests according to D&D principles, that is that power increases as level increases.

Nothing about having a UA bloodline makes you less human, its more about being fully human and this other thing.


What I meant was that they reflect a more transformative process. The higher in level one progresses the more like the bloodline's race they become. It does not necessarily mean they are less of the original race but rather they start to transform more towards the bloodline's race - as in picking up physical characteristics/atrributes of that race. I consider this more transformative than merely an add on. It might be more of a descriptive concept but I think the logic applies.

For exampe let's look at the Fey bloodline.

Minor: (As character level progresses)
+2 Hide checks, Iron Will, Charisma +1, Charm Person 1/day (Sp), Fey affinity +2

Intermediate (same as above - only quicker and then)
Low-light vision, +2 MS checks, Alertness, Dex +1, Speak w/animals 1/day (Sp)

Major (same as Intermediate only quicker and then):
Fey Affinity +4, Invisible 1/day (Sp), +2 on Perform checks, DR 1/cold iron, Wisdom +1, Deep Slumber 1/day (Sp), +2 on Bluff checks, DR 5/cold iron

There are several very physical changes involved here (that show up at higher levels) as opposed to interaction/skill check benefits. These tend to be associated with the Intermediate and Major version mostly - but still they are there in all the bloodlines and do reflect physical attributes of the source bloodline's race, IMO.

In this example the truely physical characteristics are (IMO):
All ability score increases, low-light vision, DR.

A case could be made that the bonus feats are a result of the bloodline's race's physical attributes too.

[Green Knight]

Or perhaps merely that the blooded character learns to tap into his (until then) hidden powers. I don't see that it HAS to be a physical transformation - a transformation certainly is one viable way of describing it, but not the only one.

It is not really that different from BR bloodlines - the main difference lies in the character level link, which is very 3E, and perhaps not fitting for BR.

[irdeggman]

Or perhaps merely that the blooded character learns to tap into his (until then) hidden powers. I don't see that it HAS to be a physical transformation - a transformation certainly is one viable way of describing it, but not the only one.


Didn't I say that it was a more "transformative process". It is definitely not something akin to learning new skills or even feats.

It is something "physical" - it doesn't mean you are necessarily growing wings or taking on different physical form. But that is a much easier way to view it.

Tapping into "hidden powers" is very much akin to what anw/ersheigh do is it not? Their physical transformation is part of how they are better able to access these abilities and it gives them more powerful versions, etc.

Some BR blood abilities cross this line and some do not. But they are much fewer (in general) and not character level based - but rather bloodscore based.

[geeman]

At 05:08 PM 4/8/2008, Sorontar wrote:

>Either way, some Ehr/Awnies have been mentioned that are mid-way to
>their full transformation. My main concern is the Ehrshegh, the
>Badger. The artwork and the description given in the original source
>describe him as having badger ears, dark fur on his face and a left
>arm that has started transforming. I have a good idea of what his
>final form should be and what special abilities he should have, but
>the issue is how should he be described as getting there? Especially
>since the transformations for the Ehrsheghlien are semi-voluntary.
>Should he just wake up one morning and say "I wish I had a tail" or
>"I wish I had stronger nails" and lo-and-behold they start growing?

I use a character class of my own devising to portray awn-/ehrshegh
transformation, so in that context the change can be described as
part of his standard levelling process. Players can control their
transformation based on a particular theme. Describing the
transformation process should be something of a collaborative
process. If the player wants to have claws maybe they could start
out by turning black, and growing long, but he`ll not get an attack
with them until he takes the "Claws" special ability.

>And what level ehrshegh is the final form?

I`ve mulled this one over a bit, and the way I figure it, using a
character class means that every level taken should amount to a rough
10% of transformation into the "final form" of the change. From that
point a character could still take levels, and the transformation can
continue, but after 100% transformation levels should be thought of
like racial class levels or transformation into a more extreme
manifestation of the totemic form. Let`s say one were changing into
the Badger. At level 10 he`s effectively a 100% badger beast
thing. (Note: awn-/ehrshegh are NOT changing into actual versions of
their totemic form, but into a sort of unique hybridized monster, so
100% transformation represents the most balanced form of that
change.) Level 11 represents a shift into a sort of super-form: a
parody or symbolic expression of the totem. A level 11 awn-/ehrshegh
with a badger form might have freakishly long claws rather than ones
that look like those of a normal badger or a comparable monster. If
there was a werebadger, for instance, the level 11 ehrshegh called
the badger would have a distinctively different physical change from
that "baseline."

>And if he starts off as a ranger, will he be able to use any ranger
>abilities when he is a full ehrshegh? Or will some of them
>transform into ehrshegh abilities?

I`ve used class features from standard, D&D classes and enhanced them
using the awn-/ehrshegh character class, so if it makes sense with
the transformation then yes to the second question. If the nature of
the transformation is significant enough to interefere with class
abilities in some way then the awn-/ehrsheghlien change should win
out. Usually, though, it`ll be pretty obvious. A character who lost
his voice due to his transformation should be able to cast spells
with verbal components.... However, not a lot of that is accounted
for in most transformations, so it probably won`t come up. I can`t
think of anything off the cuff that a ranger would lose as he turned
into a badger.

Gary

[Sorontar]

Quoting the BRCS (http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Playing_a_Scion):


The Scion classes are described below, in a format similar to Savage Species. Only those with major (or higher) bloodline strengths can take levels in the scion class.
[snip]
In order to obtain major level blood abilities a scion must have a level of the applicable scion class. In order to obtain great blood abilities a scion must have two levels of the appropriate scion class.


If I am reading the BRCS right

Tainted bloodlines get no Scion class
Minor bloodlines get no Scion class
Major bloodlines get at best Scion 1
Great bloodlines get at best Scion 2


Therefore, why should an Awn/Ehrshegh be expected to be anything beyond that. I take it that True bloodlines can take Scion 3+ so I feel that Awn/Ehr should be similarly limited. What is more, a large part of their transformation is based on Bloodform or Bloodtrait. Since it is expected to be a Major or Great blood ability, I would think that it is partially limited by the Awn/Ehr level.

Character starts heading to Ehrshegh with a great bloodline...
Ehrshegh 1: Bloodtrait (Minor)
Ehrshegh 2: Bloodtrait (Major) <- stop here if is was only a Major bloodline
Ehrshegh 3: Bloodtrait (Great)

As mentioned in my previous email, I would say that there are involuntary physical changes at Ehr 1 but they can be hidden. Ehr 2 gets new whiz-bang abilities and the changes can be better managed, but no longer hidden. Ehr 3 takes on the full Ehrshegh form (whatever that is) and super abilities that make the most of the form. I agree with Gary that if Ehr 4 was ever achievable then it should be a corruption of the image the Ehr 3 was trying to mirror (e.g. a humanoid badger etc) with associated pluses and minuses. But Ehr 3 should be the basic form. 10 levels is a bit too different to standard Scions for me.

Sorontar

[bbeau22]

I agaree with Sorontar for the most part. How I would introduce it as...

Monsterous levels that can or can not be taken by the scion. At what point the transformation happens you can honestly have it 3 levels or even 5 levels of transformation. The DM would have to decide what the final outcome would be for the character and what each step will look like.

This leaves alot of work for the DM to judge. The character should have no idea what each level will bring including benifits and negatives. Create what you feel would be a final outcome for the character and makes as many levels as appropreite. Make each level equal in power to what a level in a standard class would be. This way you keep everything balanced and the player has no idea how many levels it would take to get to the final transformation.

If it is based off of a monster or an animal ... look at the animal traits and then start creating a level progression for the character to follow. As long as the levels aren't more powerful than a standard level, then everything will remain even.

-BB

[Lawgiver]

Or perhaps merely that the blooded character learns to tap into his (until then) hidden powers. I don't see that it HAS to be a physical transformation - a transformation certainly is one viable way of describing it, but not the only one.


Agreed.

Personally, I wouldn't make level based. IF it's going to be based on a numeric value I'd do it based on the bloodline. Each pt gained pushes one further toward transformation. It would be interesting to offer a new feat after every Xpts (3?) and a disadvantage every Y pts(5?).

[mrmurphy]

Agreed.

Personally, I wouldn't make level based. IF it's going to be based on a numeric value I'd do it based on the bloodline. Each pt gained pushes one further toward transformation. It would be interesting to offer a new feat after every Xpts (3?) and a disadvantage every Y pts(5?).

I would think that they should be more directly linked. Have the advantage and disadvantage increment at the same time, and make sure that they affect the same thing. The gorgon's gaze became more and more potent as his visage became more and more horrific, etc. etc.