Goblin/Giant Empire

[Panics]

Hi di oh,

I want to create an empire ruled by Giants and with goblins minions.

If I split the mountain range and stating it's the "Giant Empire" with 1 province (2).

My Giant Ruler: Gamamon would earn 2 GB for Province* (2), 2/3 GB for Law** (2), 1 1/3 GB for Guild*** (2) and 1 1/3 GB for Temple**** (2) for a total of 5 1/3 GB per season.

* Gamamon is the ruler of the Province.
** Gamamon has pure control on law.
*** Guild involve raiding, hunting, foraging and scavaging type activities that contribute to the ruler. (thanks Kgauck!)
**** Priest of the God of Goblins & Giants prey for they're ruler Gamamon.

How would cost a Goblin unit ?
How would cost an Ogre unit ?
How would cost a Giant unit ?

Is there information on this kind of domain in BR?

Thanks

[kgauck]

Guild, temples, law, and sources could all exist.

giant/goblin guilds would involve raiding , basic tool making, hunting, foraging, scavaging type activities. Goblins at least can function on a low input-output economy, so GB, which are pretty flexible units of measure, work for goblins just as they do for humans. I might decide that "goblin GB's" don't work out 1:1 to human, so hiring human mercenaries might be especially expensive, but raising goblin hordes would work out just as the realm system suggests.

Temples are pretty straitforward, I imagine.

Law would be whatever strongarm institutions your giant ruler provided. Bands of orog bullys, ogre punishers, or goblin informers might all play a part.

Units would cost the same as human units, because as I suggest above, the costs are based on a goblin econony. Trying to figure out how to break down the quanity vs quality issues of goblins just isn't required with the GB as a unit.

[AndrewTall]

The BRCS has costs for common goblin units in table 6.1h.

BR2e has costs in table 22 on page 63 of the Br rulebook - although costs there should be halved for a goblin realm.

Otherwise look to an existing human unit and tweak it to fit mechanically and thematically. I did something similar for a game and can send you the spreadsheets if you like showing the units I made.

[Sorontar]

Those BRCS tables are copied on the wiki at http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php?title=Military_units&section=18#Common_army_units

Sorontar

[Panics]

Guild, temples, law, and sources could all exist.

giant/goblin guilds would involve raiding , basic tool making, hunting, foraging, scavaging type activities. Goblins at least can function on a low input-output economy, so GB, which are pretty flexible units of measure, work for goblins just as they do for humans. I might decide that "goblin GB's" don't work out 1:1 to human, so hiring human mercenaries might be especially expensive, but raising goblin hordes would work out just as the realm system suggests.

Temples are pretty straitforward, I imagine.

Law would be whatever strongarm institutions your giant ruler provided. Bands of orog bullys, ogre punishers, or goblin informers might all play a part.

Units would cost the same as human units, because as I suggest above, the costs are based on a goblin econony. Trying to figure out how to break down the quanity vs quality issues of goblins just isn't required with the GB as a unit.


Well... I think a GB is not that flexible... since a Giant Domain may have great fortification and should cost the same as the human. (ex. a human and giant castle should cost the same (8 GBxlevel) and should offer the same protection)

Wouldn't it be better to stay on the same basis (1 GB = 2,000 gp) but only reduce the GB cost to muster ? As stated in the table, a goblin unit cost 1 GB has a mercenary unit, but could cost 0.5 GB for a Goblin domain.

No ? Yes ? don't care goblins are killed too fast ?

[kgauck]

Using gold pieces as the notional conversion doesn't make as much sense for goblins. What does a goat's stomach full of rat meat get at the local market? Gold Bars mean whatever you need them to mean in terms of stuff. It can be bags of oats, a stock of shortswords, the cows they are still looking for in Mhoried, whatever.

But I think goblins are less productive, and less in need of stuff, coincidentally in the same proportion. So a day of goblin labor produces a the same portion of goblin need that a day of human labor produces of human need.

[RaspK_FOG]

Wouldn't it be reasonable, then, to apply a simple model of percentile equivalency? For example, goblin estates and so on are accounted for normally, but 1 GB from goblin lands is exchanged for X% worth of human GBs.

[irdeggman]

Using gold pieces as the notional conversion doesn't make as much sense for goblins. What does a goat's stomach full of rat meat get at the local market? Gold Bars mean whatever you need them to mean in terms of stuff. It can be bags of oats, a stock of shortswords, the cows they are still looking for in Mhoried, whatever.

But I think goblins are less productive, and less in need of stuff, coincidentally in the same proportion. So a day of goblin labor produces a the same portion of goblin need that a day of human labor produces of human need.


Why would goblins need less? They need "different" things, but not really "less" - they should need the same amount of food and supplies, while lacking in "luxury" items.

Aren't BR goblins actually more civilized than are the MM versions?

BR goblins are mostly "hobgoblins" (the elite and ruling class goblins) while the bugbears (Large) and goblins (Small) fill in the "muscle" and "servant" ranks.

I believe that they fall under a similar "industrial development" as the Vos - which explains why their "cities" tend to be smaller than the normal human ones do. (Lacking in "luxury" but still functioning to fill the "needs").

Remember that BR goblins could actually be magicians in the 2nd ed material - so they have some sort of "society structure" that supports "study and academics" of some kind. As a whole, they are not merely wandering raiders.

[kgauck]

I would say the same about the Vos, lower input-output. Game works the same unless you try and buy a lot of Brecht or Khinasi stuff with GB. (mercenaries mostly).

[Panics]

Well I've still have difficulty with the idea...

I do understand your point Kgauck but I don't see the rules like that.

If I follow your rule, they would have included a X% for human trade and the dwarves or the elves. But there's not, so meaning that the GB value is the same.

Also, like I said, a Fortification (5) in human territories is mostly to be a great stone castle, so good defense, but following your guideline, a Fortification (5) in goblin territories would be only a wooden fort.

Is there any book about Spiderfell and Gorgon realms, I think they're not human realms ?

[irdeggman]

I would say the same about the Vos, lower input-output. Game works the same unless you try and buy a lot of Brecht or Khinasi stuff with GB. (mercenaries mostly).

Really the game only works the same unless you start to cross-culture at all.

This can cause a bookkeeping nightmare by having to keep track of the "mark up" of different cultural goods.

It can be done, is probably more accurate, but is a lot more work.

Elven and dwarven goods should by their very nature be at a premium to other cultures.

If using cross culture economic comparisons - I would use Brecht as the standard, since they pretty much trade with "everyone" and it would make sense that theirs would be the comparison to use. {Even though the other cultures would think theirs is the standard, oh vanity.}

[irdeggman]

I think this sums up the overview of what a GB is.

From Chap 8 of the BRCS.



The value of a gold bar
In a non-BIRTHRIGHT setting, you may select any coinage equivalent to a gold bar, as appropriate. The default value of 2,000gp in coinage should be acceptable for most campaigns. It should be noted, however, that a Gold Bar is not just a measure of monetary assets; it is a combination of many factors that is expressed in a term for use on domain-level spending/value. Typically a GB is a combination of coinage (sp, gp, etc.), valuable assets (gems, artwork, etc.), or owed services and goods (weapons, armor, food stuff, cloth, etc.). The assets represented by a GB may vary based on both culture and time; for example, in the winter months a collected GB probably represents worked goods, not foodstuffs (which might be represented at harvest-time). The Gold Bar is a game abstraction and can be anything the DMs deems reasonable.

Does an Anuirean GB have the same value as an Rjurik one? For the purposes of abstraction, the question is not relevant. A GB collected and spent in Anuire has the same relative purchasing power as a GB collected and spent in Rjurik. Only when Gold Bars cross culture boundaries does the exact value of the GB becomes truly relevant. As BIRTHRIGHT is an action-oriented game setting (rather than a cultural simulation), it is recommended that the relative economic status of various cultures be disregarded. In effect, a Gold Bar has exactly the same purchasing power everywhere. DMs who wish to institute rules for inflation, devaluation of coinage, and other economic factors are encouraged to do so, but such detail is beyond the default scope of the setting.

It should also be noted that some BIRTHRIGHT domain purchases in gold bars do [not] always reconcile well with the gold piece value guidelines presented in the Dungeon Master's Guide or other official d20 source books. The gold bar values for castles, ships, military units, and other domain assets are based on the established (and well play-tested) domain-level values introduced in the original BIRTHRIGHT setting. Discrepancies could be explained by noting the prices in the official source books may include the value of the land on which the castle/keep is built, plus the cost of creating a significant agricultural area with which to support the castle's inhabitants; such factors are already accounted for in the domain-level rules and thus the perceived prices may differ. It should be taken as read that the price for some assets have a different value in the BIRTHRIGHT setting. Use the values for assets in other campaign settings with care; combining two possibly different scales of asset valuation is potentially unbalancing.

[kgauck]

Not at all. The game effect of all realm activities is exactly the same. A level 3 fort is a level 3 fort. The difference is in things like how many towers are involved, is the wall megalith or brick and mortar, are the walls crenalated, and so on.

Consider one level 3 fort built by giants. Its a megalithic structure, constructed out of large whole rocks. Lifted and carried into place by giants and ogres, gaps are filled with rubbled and mortar. The shape of the fortification is circular, as are nearly all dark ages forts. It has no towers, but a hill is constructed inside the fort and a small stone structure is built on it for archers and as a final refuge.

Consider another level 3 fort constructed by the most advanced Cerilians, either Anuireans, Brecht, or Khinasi. The fort is constrcuted of cut blocks, each fitted to each other by master stone masons. The shape of the fortification follows the natural terrain, and includes a gate house and five towers. A keep is constructed inside the castle for defense and as a refuge. This fortification is smaller than the circle of large rocks, but each would be just as difficult to besiege or overcome. The giants constructed their fort more easily. It took fewer days of labor, lower quality food to keep the workforce going, and no specialists. The human fort took longer to build, the workforce required better quality food and better quality tools, and their were many specialists involved.

By the same token, the human economy (based on the same specialists and and tools) produces more. So the fort from each culture took about the same proportion of productive capacity.

The premise of the gold bar is that everything behind the final outcome doesn't matter (except as flavor) so that a gold bar buys a gold bar worth of stuff, even though in one province stone is expensive, and in another province food is expensive, while in another province, labor is expensive. Plus, where you end up on the quality vs quantity slider doesn't matter, because a gold bar buys a gold bar worth of combat effectiveness, whether its a lot of goblins with dark-ages crafted technology, or a few elite Anuirean horsemen with the best armor and weapons, a gold bar buys a gold bar's worth of stuff.

But I do think its worth pointing out that what's going on behind each gold bar is not the same.

[kgauck]

Elven and dwarven goods should by their very nature be at a premium to other cultures.

Cetainly, but you need fewer of them to get the job done, and the elves and dwarves have taken the time to establish stockpiles of high quality arms, so in the end, a gold bar buys a a gold bar worth of combat effectiveness.

But you can be sure that when DM'ing for dwarves I mention their superior arms, well crafted, lovingly crafted by master artisans, compared to the hastily crafted arms assembled by amatures that the humans carry.

But even so, a gold bar buys the same combat value no matter who spends it. But I will desccribe the armies differently. Not everyone is buying the same quality, quantity, or even needs the same resources to go from a to b.

[Retillin]

I would say the same about the Vos, lower input-output. Game works the same unless you try and buy a lot of Brecht or Khinasi stuff with GB. (mercenaries mostly).


So the Anurien GB is a euro, the Bretch and Khinasi is an American dollar, and what the Vos, Goblin, Rjurik GB are some sort of Russian or Mexican money?

I dont buy that (pardon the pun). Just because a Rjurik pesent pays his master in wheat, or furs doesnt mean he pays less. Otherwise what would stop some realms from signing on mercenary units from a cheaper yet close by racial group. I mean why wouldn't a Brecht leader use Vos for his lower units? You start to get into a game that is more worried about trade value of it's Yen than about everything else.

I have always thought that 8GB of one nations or race is the same as others. It's just that Dwarves use gold to pay their rent and vos use their time as warriors for the tribe.

Sorry to derail the post.

Back on topic I would assume that all goblin units are half cost to muster (just like elves and dwarves). But I think the best template you could use for a giant realm is an Awnsheghlien realm. Something along the lines of the Manticore or such.

[Panics]

So... after re-reading muster cost, it would seem a Goblin Unit would cost 1 GB

Light armor (+0.5 GB)
Infantry or Pike (+0.5 GB)

Total 1 GB

I could muster 1,000 goblins like that (making 5 GB per season)

Even if they're not strong... that's impressive !

[cccpxepoj]

what about some better goblin units, they are still ruled by giants so can't they force them into some special training and create some elite goblin unit( unit of bugbear berserkers, hobgoblin cavalry etc. )?

[kgauck]

Just because a Rjurik pesent pays his master in wheat, or furs doesnt mean he pays less.

Well, the world has a largely agricultural economy, and the Rjurik has a much shorter growing season. It would seem that he must pay less. This is generally accounted for in the color text by saying that the Rjurik are hardy and can make due with less. There is just no way that acre for acre you're getting the same productivity from the northern lands as you are from the southern. Return on labor for dark ages, high medieval, and renaissance technology is not the same. In terms of agriculture, where 90% of people work, its a ratio of 2:4:6 in each of those ages respectively. If 90% of the people (not 90% of the total GDP) are producing in these ratios, its hard to imagine how their per capita tax rate is the same.

When we say that the Rjurik have a high medieval technology level, and then we account for their climate. Its hard to imagine that the cost of anything in Halskapa is going to be compatible with the cost of things in Diemed. This is of course why people trade, to take advantage in the price differences of objects here and there (as well as exclusive resources). But in border areas, there is going to be a much closer level of climate and technology level. Svinikers won't hire Avanese pikemen when then want Anuirean pikemen, they'll be recruiting from Talinie or Dhoesone, whose technology would be regarded as backwater to the South Coast and the Heartlands, and their climate is similar to to the southern most Rjurik lands.

In terms of normal play, these are theoretical issues. Its like time zones. In the modern world time zones are set (for the railroads 150 years ago) but in the medieval world, you took time based on the local position of the sun. Likewise in Cerilia as you travel about you won't (mostly) notice dramatic changes in the value of money or labor. Things will change gradually, so that a GB will always buy the same value to a domain. The one place where you might notice the change dramatically is the Brecht-Vos contact area, where its much cheaper for Brecht to hire Vos mercs than the other way round.

[Panics]

A question would be:

If it cost 1 GB for a common goblin infantry that is classified has "mercs"... what would be the value of the "mercs" ? 0.5 GB ?

To a Goblin Domain, a Common Anuirean units of Knights mercenaries would cost how much ? (6GB for Anuire)

[geeman]

At 03:41 AM 11/14/2007, Retillin wrote:

>I have always thought that 8GB of one nations or race is the same as
>others. It`s just that Dwarves use gold to pay their rent and vos
>use their time as warriors for the tribe.

It`s definitely simpler from a gaming POV to assume that a GB is a GB
no matter where it is generated, spent or exchanged. Some folks
prefer a more detailed economic system, and such things are
interesting to read about, but I`d be pretty unlikely to use such a
thing in a domain system. Relative economic disparities are better
portrayed IMO by terrain and its effects on population levels, the
actual population levels, guild holding levels and the capacity of
trade routes (which should also be a leveled component, but I
digress....) That way the abstraction of the GB can remain an abstraction.

>Back on topic I would assume that all goblin units are half cost to
>muster (just like elves and dwarves). But I think the best template
>you could use for a giant realm is an Awnsheghlien realm. Something
>along the lines of the Manticore or such.

Giants are, relatively speaking, more rare than other types of
creatures in a population. Amongst the monstrous races they might be
considered to occupy the role that knights occupy in human lands. As
such, a "giant kingdom" that ruled a largely goblin or other land
needn`t be any more powerful militarily or as a population than any
other BR domain. The muster cost and stats of various "giant
kingdom" units could and probably should vary just as widely as those
of human realms depending on the number of elite (read: giant) troops
are in the unit. Where a human company of soldiers is comprised
largely of 1st and 2nd level soldiers, with sergeants and a few
officers ranging from 3rd to 6th or 7th level a company of soldiers
from the giant kingdom would be comprised mostly of goblins with
proportionately more powerful monsters in the place of levelled humans.

Gary

[AndrewTall]

I dont buy that (pardon the pun). Just because a Rjurik pesent pays his master in wheat, or furs doesnt mean he pays less. Otherwise what would stop some realms from signing on mercenary units from a cheaper yet close by racial group. I mean why wouldn't a Brecht leader use Vos for his lower units? You start to get into a game that is more worried about trade value of it's Yen than about everything else.

Well he could try for a while, but sooner or later the inherent danger of being a rich weakling surrounding yourself with bloodthirsty warriors looking for gold and slaughter might discourage imitation :)

I can see your point, but the technologically backward areas close to a sufficiently wealthy group for there to be a big wealth gap (i.e. the Vos:Brecht, Vos:Khinasi and the goblinoids) are presumably technologically backward because they really don't get on well with their neighbours - otherwise they'd have bought the technology. Those poor relations would deter all but the desperate from the mercenary hires suggested, or from mass land buying or other problems caused by rich nation : poor nation divides.

Of course if you want to argue that there shouldn't be such radical technological divides then I'd be hard pressed to counter beyond mumbling about angry gods, rabid cultures and suchlike - but if they exist something must be stopping the interaction.

[Retillin]

Sorry, maybe it is just me, but I do not see the goblins as weak as I think the rest of you do. The second largest city that we know of in Birthright is a goblin city. The requirements of mantaining a city that large would, at least in my mind, be a strong economy and strong personal leaders. (Does not have to be the "king" per se)

So a goblin might not make a crystal vase as well as an elf, or a stone building as well as a dwarf. However there has to be something that makes their culture strong enough to have some rather large, and a few rather strong realms.

[kgauck]

Goblin's aren't weak. They are very effective in battle. They aren't terribly productive as economic actors, though.

[Panics]

ok... found the answer !

Mercs cost double muster/maintenance !

And even if the "merc" tag is on the goblin unit, it's the base muster cost. So a common goblin unit in goblin domain would cost 1 GB. A goblin mercenary unit would cost 2 GB.

***Now the new question !***

An infantry unit is Warriors or Fighters class ?

Because, if I referred to DMG, a mercenary unit cost 6gp/month and is a War1. So if my standard Anuirean unit cost 2 GB, that makes me 4 GB as mercs. Also, this means they would earn only 3 gp/month when on garrison, 6 gp/month active and 12 gp/month to muster. Assuming a unit is 200 soldiers and a GB is around 2,000 gp.

Also, is they're a rule for creating units ? Ogre Legion is 8 GB with +12 to-hit, so How can I create an Hill Giant unit ?

[irdeggman]

Don't do it that way. You will totally be messed up.

The quote I provided from Chap 8 about the value of a GB talks about how things are different at the domain level. That applies to troop costs too.



Behind the curtain: How many individuals are in an army unit?
An army unit consists of enough individuals to make a reasonable fighting force in mass combat. The actions of particularly strong individuals or small groups are not represented as a unit; instead they are represented as an adjustment to the unit with which they travel, using a Hero's card (refer to the section on tactical warfare). If it is necessary, for role-playing reasons, to determine the number of individuals in a unit then the following guidelines can be useful.

A military unit has an encounter level (EL) of roughly 14 + half of the unit's muster cost. For example, a unit of standard infantry (muster cost 2 GB) is approximately EL 15. If we assume that the soldiers in the unit are 1st-level warriors (CR 1), then we can determine that it requires 128 soldiers CR 1 soldiers to create a standard EL 15 unit. Thus, there are approximately 128 soldiers in a standard unit.

Elite units often consist largely of veteran troops and a core contingent of specialized warriors. These forces work together in order attack to maximize the damage to the enemy. Only a small fraction of the individuals in a unit of Anuirean Knights, for example, are actually knights. The majority of the unit consists of light cavalry, retainers, and other support troops that accompany the knight. Likewise, an Ogre unit will generally contain a sizable contingent of goblin support troops. As a rule of thumb, the specialized troops should make no more than 50% (base EL - 2) of the overall unit strength. A unit of Varsk riders (EL 18) might consist of both mounted varsk riders (CR 5) and mounted support personal (CR 2). This unit might contain approximately 50 mounted varsk riders (EL 16) and 100 support personal (EL 16) for a total encounter level of 18.

If you really want to go into tremendous detail on troop size (down to the individual member costs) then drop the entire BRCS system and use a different one totally.

Cry Havoc will probably have the level of detail you want.

[Panics]

There are no kingdom ruling in Cry Havoc.

I'm trying to bridge BR-domain rules, Cry Havoc, DMG rules and Stonghold Builders Guidebook all together ! I don't need for a complex system like the Empire or Fields of war books. BR is the simplest-easiest system ever created for ruling a kingdom in 2e or 3e (since Wotc focus on fu** dungeoning even for 20th-level characters... they don't seem to realize that they're 13th-level kings must got money and riches from the people and that maybe PC would like to hold this kind of power!)

From my point of vue, I try to bridge all those rules together and its not easy. But by having a GB value of 4,000 gp, it seems to bind together better. Its look like BR-setting was less rich than the DMG3.5.

DMG and Stronghold builders states a simple guard (war1) has 6 gp/month... does this really equals the value of a unit of Mercs ? or Regular unit ? (6*3=18 gp/season * 200 soldiers = 3 600 gp). But than, is the 6gp/month value is set as garrison or active or muster cost ?

The bridge is very short to cross and adapt. I only seek your wisdom on the subject ;)

After all... in BR what is a Fortification (5) ? a Great Stone Castle or a Motte-and-Bailey ?

[Panics]

Quote:

Behind the curtain: How many individuals are in an army unit?
An army unit consists of enough individuals to make a reasonable fighting force in mass combat. The actions of particularly strong individuals or small groups are not represented as a unit; instead they are represented as an adjustment to the unit with which they travel, using a Hero's card (refer to the section on tactical warfare). If it is necessary, for role-playing reasons, to determine the number of individuals in a unit then the following guidelines can be useful.

A military unit has an encounter level (EL) of roughly 14 + half of the unit's muster cost. For example, a unit of standard infantry (muster cost 2 GB) is approximately EL 15. If we assume that the soldiers in the unit are 1st-level warriors (CR 1), then we can determine that it requires 128 soldiers CR 1 soldiers to create a standard EL 15 unit. Thus, there are approximately 128 soldiers in a standard unit.

Elite units often consist largely of veteran troops and a core contingent of specialized warriors. These forces work together in order attack to maximize the damage to the enemy. Only a small fraction of the individuals in a unit of Anuirean Knights, for example, are actually knights. The majority of the unit consists of light cavalry, retainers, and other support troops that accompany the knight. Likewise, an Ogre unit will generally contain a sizable contingent of goblin support troops. As a rule of thumb, the specialized troops should make no more than 50% (base EL - 2) of the overall unit strength. A unit of Varsk riders (EL 18) might consist of both mounted varsk riders (CR 5) and mounted support personal (CR 2). This unit might contain approximately 50 mounted varsk riders (EL 16) and 100 support personal (EL 16) for a total encounter level of 18. /QUOTE


This rule is not right... simply because a unit of 1st-level warriors (first warriors are CR1/2 and not 1) is not an EL 15 when facing an Hero 15th-level, he would gain no XP even if you have an army of 128 1st-level warriors. Only 8 can attack in close-combat and another 16 could attack with reach weapons at -4 to-hit ! Even with arrows you would shoot in melee -4 and with cover -4 for -8 total. So it wouldn't be a challenge of EL 15 !

So to state that a unit is 200 individuals (as per BRCS p.90) is much easier !

[Panics]

I have come with a formulae:


((CR*BaseGB)+BaseGB)*(Number of soldiers/200)

Ogres (CR3)
equivalency of Medium/Irregulars/Standard for Muster base value of 2GB

so...

(3x2)+2)*200/200=8 GB per unit

Which correspond with the 8 GB value of p.117 @ Ogre Legion stats.

Hill Giants would be:

Hill Giants (CR7)
Equivalency of Medium/Irregulars/Standard for muster base value of 2GB

((7x2)+2)*200/200=16 GB per unit

for a unit of 25 Hill Giants...

((7x2)+2)*25/200=4 GB per unit


what do you think ?

[irdeggman]

There are no kingdom ruling in Cry Havoc.

Correct, but you were talking about units based on individual soldier pricing - that was why I mentined it. I was refering to the fact that the monetary value in the core rule books and the GB costs in the BRCs do not correspond readily. In general a unit in BR costs more than the equivalent in number of warriors from the DMG. This could be seen as the cost of "training" a group to work together instead of a group of uncoordinated wrriors. By costing more I'm including the maintenance costs as well as the muster costs. The DMg lacks on the maintenance side pretty drastically.

Fields of Blood has a domain system also - and mass combat system.

It doesn't use the skill based system that the BRCS uses.



After all... in BR what is a Fortification (5) ? a Great Stone Castle or a Motte-and-Bailey ?


It could be any or all of those. It really depends on where you are.

A fortification in certain locations could be less of a "structure" than guards and terrain.

The BRCS was designed (based on the 2nd ed material) to be rather abstract so that a DM could make it as detailed as he wanted to.

But, I would caution someone to be real careful about how much detail they put in.

Once that door is opened it becomes very hard to close. And few things are as frustrating as a half done system (that is only some of it being detailed).

One of the biggest complaints about BR's domain system (in 2nd ed) was the book keeping. It is rather easy to get lost in the details and end up accounting for almost everything instead of only the "important" things.

[Retillin]

Just remember that the GB that a unit uses is not just the wages of it's soilders. It is also up keep for the arms and armour as well as food and lodging. So the price an npc (or pc if you wish) makes a month can be less that what is stated in these books. Just a thought, that way you could have an army of 100 cost 1,800gp a month for wages as you said with the rest going to upkeep.

(the reason a unit could be said to cost more could also include "hazzard" pay)

[Panics]

Well I know that the rules must be bend ;)

I don't search the exact details of the salaries of troops but do understand that my PC may want to buy different kind of troops and while using Cry Havoc (which use a 10 soldier basis).

I want to clarify the rules only to have guidelines for creating armies and managin fortification costs without having to ask the DM !

Our BR-like game is more of an "in between" games where our 13th-level characters have some land and play kings and queens of their countries. In games, we mainly play low-levels in dungeoneering !!

[Gman]

Tharazor is a goblin realm of organisation and some sophistication - Goblins it seems if well led can manufacture and produce effectively (as far as I can see) - I can't remember any special rulings for production/ trade/ guilds particularly - as it is treated much as any other province.

Prehaps look there for some of your parallels - some human realms packed full of robbers and outcasts would have less sophistication.

I also have the impression that BR treated its Goblins a bit differently from standard D&D gobbos - but mabey thats just from looking at Tharazor - Markazor. (SP)?

[irdeggman]

Well I know that the rules must be bend ;)

I don't search the exact details of the salaries of troops but do understand that my PC may want to buy different kind of troops and while using Cry Havoc (which use a 10 soldier basis).

So you are already in house-rule territory, since you have combined rule-sets. Which is what my earlier comment was alluding to. Combining rule sets makes things difficult, especially if there are other house-rules in effect (typical of any game not just a BR one).


I want to clarify the rules only to have guidelines for creating armies and managin fortification costs without having to ask the DM !

But you are still getting the DM's approval for the result correct?

That is when you create a new unit, the DM has final say on what its stats (and costs) are - just like spell research.

So in reality it is probably best to talk it over with the DM first before spending a lot of time on it only to have him/her say it works different than you wanted.

I tend to worry about putting in too much detail in the rules because players (and I know players because I is one) will tend to use the rules to their advantage and remove the DM's flexability in how he/she runs the game. When it comes down to the DM stating "That is the DM's call" and it doesn't match what is written down there can be a lot of resentment, especially in non table-top, face-to-face games - which is real common for BR due to the domain level play aspects.

[irdeggman]

I also have the impression that BR treated its Goblins a bit differently from standard D&D gobbos - but mabey thats just from looking at Tharazor - Markazor. (SP)?

Nope - BR specifically treated goblins differently than the MM version in 2nd ed and this carried over to the BRCS. BR goblins tend to be more organized and socially structured than the MM version.

They were at war with the elves and enslaved by them (all before Deismaar) - so there is a precedent for the present-day BR goblins have more knowledge on how to groom domains and manage resources than the MM version.

[kgauck]

On page 19, the rule book still identifies goblins as aproximating Dark Ages technology. That's a pretty clear statement about the sophistication and production effeciency of the goblins.

I generally would apply the "Charlemagne test". If its way too modern for Charlemagne, its too modern for the goblins.

[irdeggman]

On page 19, the rule book still identifies goblins as aproximating Dark Ages technology. That's a pretty clear statement about the sophistication and production effeciency of the goblins.

The same as the Vos. :)

I don't know about "sophistication" and "production efficiency" being related to "technology". What that meant in 2nd ed was "technology, that is how "complex" the weapons and equipment was. In general this correlated to fewer "steel" weapons and other "high tech" weaponry (the Vos specifically do not have steel weapons - , well they were much "rarer" at the least). It did not mean that they couldn't manage resources as well, or not well enough to run a domain - that is the big difference between BR goblins and the MM variation, IMO.


I generally would apply the "Charlemagne test". If its way too modern for Charlemagne, its too modern for the goblins.

I like this one.

[Panics]

Well I am the DM... and I want my Players to have some autonomy on their creativity without having a phone call every 5 min because they want to know if its OK for they're caste to have a guard tower they're and they're because they live in a Fortification (2).

I know that the GB factor is very general and its perfect. That's why I always loved the BR-domain rules ! Simple, straight forward, fast !

For the players to know that a Fortification (5) is like having Military structures equivalent to around 80.000 gp is a way for them to create their holdings. Designing they're castle... with finale approval of DM. To know that for 0.6 GB, they can Hire 10 Ogres mercs, that's also interesting... It's fleshing out they're characters.

As for me, the DM, I can create ennemies that are "believable". What I have found in other settings and Wotc books/adventures is a lack of believability. One country has an army of 3000 man and the other has only 100. You have Goblins hordes of 100,000 that comes from nowhere but it's fun to clash with it ! let's write an adventure !

[kgauck]

What that meant in 2nd ed was "technology, that is how "complex" the weapons and equipment was.There are really only two things that determine production efficiency: skill and tools. But we know there must be a ceiling on skills, because better skills produce better tools. Working with a set of dark age tools, and the skill set that produces them must yield no more than a dark ages level of productivity. So a given level of technology is almost strictly determinative of production and economic sophistication.


It did not mean that they couldn't manage resources as well, or not well enough to run a domain - that is the big difference between BR goblins and the MM variation, IMO.
"Well" is a relative term. Compared to a renaissance level of statecraft, Edward III is backward and William the Conqueror is primitive. There are serious questions about how post-feudal the modern powers are (Anuire, Brecht, Khinasi), but Charlemagne is pre-feudal, and pre-manorial. Charlemagne may have run things well compared to the visigoths, the ostrogoths, or the Merovingians, but he was not so well off as the Moors, never mind the later medieval states, like those of William or Edward, let alone the Tudors.