Are wondrous structures worth it?

[dekrass]

To build a wondrous structure you have to spend huge amounts of GB, and maintenance is 2GB per level. All you get is 1 RP per level.
So just in maintenance you're spending 2GB for 1RP.
It seems for most holding types you get more regency than gold, anyway.
Is the option just there so you can say "Hey, I built that, it's cool!"
It doesn't seem reasonable from a mechanics standpoint, unless I missed something.
Is it really just there for the cool factor, or is there something else?

[AndrewTall]

Most of the wondrous structures give an additional benefit - the 1 RP is supposed to simply be a standard benefit to reflect the fact that the wonder is something glorious.

Sepsis put some Monuments on the wiki:

http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Monuments

There are others around on various sites but those should give an idea of wonders.

[kgauck]

I think the monuments were an idea borrowed from the Sid Meyer series of Civilization strategy games and ported into Birthright. It has always struck me as artifical and less than compelling.

[dekrass]

I have one player that suggested a bonus to domain attitude.
It represents the morale boost of having the structure.
I can understand wanting something like this, I just don't know how it should work in game.

[Gwrthefyr]

Well, it's supposed to represent a regent building a status symbol to flaunt their excess cash - the boni may be hard to balance, but I doubt it should be something balanced (as in, you get you money's worth); if the owner of the wonder had cared, he'd have bought ships, or invested in infrastructure, bureaucracy, founded colleges, hospitals, raised a bigger standing army, put cash aside and maybe loaned some, fund a colonial venture, etc.

[Thinking] Something with regency and maybe loyalty, plus, in RP terms, the very likely possibility that your realm will become a trade magnet because most guilders will know you have money to waste, perhaps an increased occurence of certain events (petitions to reduce taxes, prospective advisors/lieutenants, etc.) indicating it as well.
Any other advantage should probably be tied with the practical use of the building. Maybe with some limited improvement, but never as efficient as a similarly costly but more utilitarian one, or something.

[ArchScarlettie]

Of course it's worth it! I remind my other Birthright fans, the original College of Sorcery, a gigantic tower in the City of Anuire, would have qualified as a wonderous structure. A magical school could have provided easy access to wizard lieutenants, a great storage area of arcane lore, as well as, no doubt, enough magical power to accomplish imperial objectives (Such as the Shadow Gates used by Reole against the Vos where he tried to conquer the wastes). Something so spectacular is noteworthy and remembered. And of course it was hugely expensive. But the prestige made it one of a kind.

The Imperial Palace could have in and of itself been another wonderous structure, a fanciful and functional home for an Emperor and his family, a Court unmatched throughout Cerilia.

It makes sense as something else for a very successful regent to do with all those GB's, when he's sheparded a kingdom along for a lifetime, gained great fame and fortune, and wants to leave his mark on the land and it's people. I think it enhances the game. The game mechanics benefits from wonderous structures could be nearly anything, depending on function and design.

[Gman]

I agree costs seem to outweigh value in current rules.

However a wondrous structure can provide any sort of benefit you can get the Gm to agree to. This is usually constricted by game balance.

Providing diplomacy bonus in addition to a court is a good one. People are usually drawn to see and impressed by a wonder.

The Imperial tower of wizardry obviously had a whole other bunch of effects - some of which would probably be more obviously roleplayed than just in the rules.

Building a 300' tall statue to Haelyn would probably have more effects than 1 RP. The faithful flocking to see. Priesthood loving you. etc etc.

[Gheal]

I prefer, personally, this situation, when cost outweigh value. I do not like idea of anuirean, khinasi and brecht provinces littered by wonders of the world.
When my players build something wondrous, I assign them somewhat subtle bonuses. +2... +4 to counter enemy Agitate action (it was kind of Great Hospital), 1 free court action once per season (Grand Palace for meetings of neighbour nobles), +2 free levels of fortification for law holding (magically built fortress in goblin lands), +4 to seaworthiness checks in province's coastal waters (Great Lighthouse, of course). And few RP, as usual. On the other side, I never appraise these projects more, than 40-50 GB (well, it can be more, but 80 GB is cost of great fortification for Imperial City). This fortress is wonder in itself.

[kgauck]

Real life analogues to wonders took decades, sometimes over a century to build. The benefits to magnificence is real and profound, but if a PC wants a marevelous thing constructed, it won't be done while he lives unless he is a long lived individual.

[ArchScarlettie]

Remember that the rules in the BRCS are a guide, not a step-by-step manual for play. It clearly mentions that complicated structures (hanging gardens) could take significantly longer to build. As for provinces being littered with wonders... If many realms can afford to spend 100+ RP/GB on a project, it makes me wonder the level of random events/aggressiveness in that game. In Anuire, I doubt Avanil or Boeruine could easily start a massively expensive project such as that without placing a gigantic burden on their treasury, and weakening their overall strategic position/effort. It also takes 1 DT per level to plan. A great lighthouse(say, 6) would take 6 DT just to plan. Then constructing it can have all sorts of things go wrong, almost any random event could hamper construction, making a wonder an accomplishment of an entire regent's reign, not just a simple project like a road.

Only a stable, secure realm, militarily, politically, magically, ect, could even complete and hold on to a wonder. It would be disasterous to have a structure that took 15 years to build be destroyed by a Raid Province action.

[AndrewTall]

The time and cost to create a structure should depend on how 'wondrous' the structure is. When writing the PS of Danigau (in typesetting) I found that Danigau could not legitimately build Brecht roundships - despite being described as one of the two realms that could possibly build tower ships and therefore one of the greatest shipbuilders in all Cerilia.

To avoid inflating a province to Level 6 I decided on a wondrous structure - the great shipyards of Blackruft - which allowed the province to build ships as though a level larger.

That's still something special - the shipyards presumably being far greater than a province that size would expect to have or maintain (thus the high cost) but the effect did not seem excessive for a relatively 'small' wonder.

Similarly the 'hanging gardens' of Baruk Azhik i.e. terraced and irrigated hillsides to permit farming of steep slopes, might allow a province to exceed the normal population level by 1 or 2.

Monuments can be handy fix-its in such a manner where the setting is less than helpful to a DM in explaining the how and why of something. Monuments are very expensive to build and maintain (which will stop them littering the landscape) and in cold hard cash terms probably are outweighed by infrastructure impovements, but if they allow a regent to do something special - take another standard action, cast a domain spell cheaply, etc - the cash cost could be outweighed by other bonuses.

I would personally add natural wonders to artificial ones - a great tree of the elves tied to the world of the fey that enhances spellcasting, grants knowledge of the surrounding forests, etc would be one possibility, a series of great underground caverns that allow the dwarves or orogs to expand would be another. I would generally give these a RP rather than GB cost, or a mixture of the two to reflect the fact that money alone could not create them.

[irdeggman]

Just as point of reference for wondrous structures:


From Book of Regency:


When regents build things, they should do so for a purpose. Realm regents tend to build roads and bridges for the benefit of other regents in the province as well as themselves—guildmasters, for example, need roads to run trade routes even as armies benefit from roads when they move. As a result, only realm regents interested in

gaining favor with other regents tend to build entirely on their own initiative. After all, if a guildmaster wants a road so he can establish a trade
route, let h i m pay for at least part of it—either with gold, Regency Points, or some other consideration, or by expending his own action instead
of the realm regent using his. Province ru ler s should support their allies, but they also have to think toward building a future for themselves.
Creative regents can build all manner of interesting structures. A regent might choose to build an edifice or “work of wonder” to attract trade or
support for his holding. For example, a re g e n t who controls a trade port might choose to build a giant lighthouse. He could have to spend upwards
of 3d6 GB to construct the “work of wonder,” but he could gain a modifier to the number of Gold Bars he receives in taxes or trade, and
the DM might increase the amount of Regency Points he gains per turn because people flock to see the edifice—and support him for building it

So while it reeks of the Civ series of games it was alluded to in the BoR.

[RaspK_FOG]

I find that it was a good, natural choice; it's not so much reeking of Civ, in a sense: did not that idea crop up from the historical fact that people in ancient times, just like today, would flock to the monument if they were anywhere near it just to set their eyes upon such a wonder? In fact, would you not consider it a wasted chance if you were close to the Great Wall of China and did not even look at it with your own naked eyes?

[geeman]

At 07:18 PM 8/6/2007, RaspK_FOG wrote:

>I find that it was a good, natural choice; it`s not so much reeking
>of Civ, in a sense: did not that idea crop up from the historical
>fact that people in ancient times, just like today, would flock to
>the monument if they were anywhere near it just to set their eyes
>upon such a wonder? In fact, would you not consider it a wasted
>chance if you were close to the Great Wall of China and did not even
>look at it with your own naked eyes?

I think we should be careful in dealing with scale a bit
here. Naturally, we think of truly vast "wondrous structures" as
examples, but we`re really talking about things that would be very
tiny in comparison. The Seven Wonders were vast, nation-spanning
structures. Something that a regent draws an extra +1 RP is going to
be pretty tiny in comparison. Given the levels of technology,
population and scale of the current rules a "Wondrous Structure" at
the BR domain level might be something more like a really good water
clock, an impressive statue, gilt castle walls, a temple spire,
etc. These might still be things that we might consider "tourist
attractions" and that have a practical purpose, but the number of
tourists attracted and the scope of their purpose should be relatively modest.

Gary

[kgauck]

I find that it was a good, natural choice; it's not so much reeking of Civ, in a sense: did not that idea crop up from the historical fact that people in ancient times, just like today, would flock to the monument if they were anywhere near it just to set their eyes upon such a wonder? In fact, would you not consider it a wasted chance if you were close to the Great Wall of China and did not even look at it with your own naked eyes?

If you read the monuents descriptions as posted (see link above) they are obviously taken directly from Civilization.

[irdeggman]

If you read the monuents descriptions as posted (see link above) they are obviously taken directly from Civilization.

And none of them are specified in the BRCS - it is deliberately vague on the details for the reasons people mentioned earlier (DM should determine viability, etc.) The BRCS only gives "minimums" in this case (minimum cost to build, maintenance and RP benefit) - anything else is up to the player and DM to come to agreement on.

IMO you are very much correct in what the fans used to develop the examples referenced.

[Thelandrin]

Of course though, even if you just reference the seven wonders of the world, you end up with two great temples (Diana of the Ephesians & Zeus of Olympia), two great tombs (Pyramids & Mausoleum of Halicarnassus), a great statue (Colossus of Rhodes), a great lighthouse (Pharos of Alexandria) and a great garden (Hanging Gardens of Babylon).

[RaspK_FOG]

Allow me to explain: while they are based off of Civ, the very concept is a natural phenomenon by all means. In fact, I find it natural that games such as Ages of Empires included the concept in turn!

As for my earlier example... Well, we of course have smaller, but equally (or more) important: the Lighthouse of Alexandria, its Library, Phoedias's gold-and-ivory statue of Athena in Athens, and so many other "small" monuments were sites commonly visited by travellers and others alike, their grandeur and splendour being magnificent in their lives.